http://forum.rickross.com/list.php?10 EN Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:06:22 +0100 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:06:22 +0100 Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence Phorum 5.1.25 60 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,1139,78049#msg-78049 bystander
I'm 25 and a new member of the group. We are only 5 at this point with me being the youngest member and the rest being 'original' to the group.

I don't want to discount or negate anything said thus far, because I just don't know how things went in the past. I never knew Tom and I mostly only know the current people who live here plus some that visit frequently. My moving here was a whimsical event upon meeting some others my age that frequently visit the house.

The channeling part I'm honestly not so sure of. They don't force me to listen to it or read it or believe it. We discuss it on occasion and I've read bits and pieces here and there. The form of spirituality currently here is based on many spiritual & mystical practices, but it is up to each to choose how they want to pursue that with the one rule being "love God." This is what I've experienced. I meditate, I believe in God and the Bible, I read metaphysical books and explore various 'out-there' topics out of curiousity.

At this point we're trying to rebuild an intentional community that focuses on sustainability with an appreciation and love of God and the exploration of the higher self. I fully intend to change and update the website at some unknown point in the future and I'm working hard to change the perception of The Gathering. Right now, we are just 5 people trying to get a garden going, trying to upkeep a huge house, trying to build a fence and take care of any other deferred maintenance around the property. We hope to have new members come in that want to share in these goals.

No matter what it was in the past, know that things have evolved and progress has been made toward a more acceptable spiritual and sustainable community...not a cult. We still have First Fridays, which anyone and everyone is welcome to if you have questions. We have a short group meditation, dinner, dessert and either a group discussion or people just talk amongst themselves about whatever is on their mind.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,1139,78049#msg-78049 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:06:22 +0100 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,77828#msg-77828 Sallie Easy reading. Very good book. Bradshaw helps define the difference between good shame (which enables a human to recognize and correct unproductive behavior), and toxic shame(which causes self-loathing).
Are you still reading these posts?
When did your guilt feelings begin? Was it before or after you stumbled upon this cult group?]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,77828#msg-77828 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:53:02 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,154,77770#msg-77770 dp198
1st question, It's real. 2. Yes, you can be brainwashed. In my opinion and experience you can make mistakes and bad decisions without realizing that there could be repercussions for them. 3. Freewill, and the ability to be able to leave when you want without repercussions. Being allowed to think for yourself and make your own decisions. 4. The ability to say no to whatever you don't want to believe and have that respected and not have anything else forced on you.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,154,77770#msg-77770 Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:02:05 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,5818,77287#msg-77287 CTEL Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,5818,77287#msg-77287 Sun, 04 Oct 2009 04:49:14 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,77286#msg-77286 CTEL
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,77276]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,77286#msg-77286 Sun, 04 Oct 2009 04:45:59 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,30767,77020#msg-77020 CTEL

he probably uses math tricks or just tells you what to think or feel

or vague expressions


get it?]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,30767,77020#msg-77020 Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:21:35 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,5818,76945#msg-76945 Warfrog Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,5818,76945#msg-76945 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 06:34:33 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,76019#msg-76019 The Anticult ___________________________________
http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

Summary
Rich Dad, Poor Dad is one of the dumbest financial advice books I have ever read. It contains many factual errors and numerous extremely unlikely accounts of events that supposedly occurred.

Kiyosaki is a salesman and a motivational speaker. He has no financial expertise and won’t disclose his supposed real estate or other investment success.

Rich Dad, Poor Dad contains much wrong advice, much bad advice, some dangerous advice, and virtually no good advice.


Dangerous advice:
"If you're gonna go broke, go broke big"
Convinces people that college is for suckers

Law-breaking advice:
Advocates committing a felony: have rich friends for trading stock based on non-public inside information, he says "That's what friends are for."
Recommends tax fraud by deducting vacations and health club dues
Brags about using a partner weasel clause in which his cat is his partner

Bad liar:
Can't keep track of his story
Shouts from the rooftops how rich he is, but refuses to disclose real estate portfolio because he "doesn't want people to know he has money"
Apparently lied about going bankrupt in 1985
Claimed his net worth is $50-$100 million depending on the day; his Rich Dad Poor Dad coauthor said in court that he only made $9 million

His "best teacher ever" changed repeatedly
'92 - Ralph Kiyosaki (Poor Dad)
'97 - Rich Dad
'06 - Buckminster Fuller

I'm not the only critic:
Wall Street Journal: "Rich Men, Poor Advice"
Smart Money Magazine: "Karma Chameleon"

Fiction posing as non-fiction:
Oprah needs to confront Kiyosaki about calling a fiction book non-fiction just like she did with James Frey
He asks why Rich Dad has to be any more truthful than Harry Potter
Admits fictionalizing on copyright page of Rich Kid, Poor Kid
Admits to 20/20 that he doesn't teach people how to get rich
"Marine corps made him what he is today" - he was laterally transferred to the Marine Corp from the Merchant Marine and Navy, he never went through the entry-level Marine training
Lied about desertion while serving in Vietnam (admitted later he just missed the boat)

________________________________]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,76019#msg-76019 Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:54:55 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,75965#msg-75965 shakti
http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

Again, read the above article and see what you think.

1. There is no "rich dad"
2. There is no "poor dad"
3. He made up the whole story.
4. His marketing is excellent, his business knowledge is pathetic.
5. People who followed his advice wound up getting PUNISHED in the recent crash.

Aside from that, he's totally on the level!]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,75965#msg-75965 Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:04:14 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,75953#msg-75953 SideOfBacon Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,75953#msg-75953 Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:23:18 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,75128,75649#msg-75649 True Agape Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,75128,75649#msg-75649 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 00:08:01 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75456#msg-75456 rrmoderator Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75456#msg-75456 Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:21:31 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75425#msg-75425 dp198 Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75425#msg-75425 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:17:49 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75421#msg-75421 rrmoderator
Why are you posting here?

What groups are you specifically discussing?

Please name the groups.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75421#msg-75421 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:53:55 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75417#msg-75417 dp198 Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75417#msg-75417 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:11:44 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75415#msg-75415 rrmoderator Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75415#msg-75415 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:08:45 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75414#msg-75414 dp198
I missed the word covert in a post I just read and sent a reply to, please don't post it.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75414#msg-75414 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:06:11 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75413#msg-75413 rrmoderator
Give examples of specific situations and offer examples with the names of those cults involved.

Your post doesn't make much sense at this point.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75413#msg-75413 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:05:05 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75409#msg-75409 dp198

If you know that they are a cult, walk away. Say no to what ever they are offering and walk pass them.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75409#msg-75409 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:44:31 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75388#msg-75388 rrmoderator
Speaking from almost 30 years of experience with cults, they don't covertly infiltrate public places in the way that seems to be suggested here.

What "cults" are you referring to?

Tapping your fingers?

I don't think that is meaningful.

Just get up and leave and if someone is bothering you report it to local authorities.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75388#msg-75388 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 03:10:01 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75374#msg-75374 humans4freedom Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,64617,75374#msg-75374 Mon, 10 Aug 2009 19:06:20 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,75128,75128#msg-75128 True Agape
The Living Word Christian Center is lead by Pastor Mac and his wife Lynn (and others). It should be noted that before starting this church, neither had any education or experience in the ministry. Neither are ordained by any denomination. At the same time, Mac is a very effective speaker and many people are inspired by his talks.

I believe a church should not be run for the monetary benefit of a few people. Of course the staff should be paid and should not be expected to live in poverty. However, the church is not a business whose primary goal is the personal enrichment of the leader and his family.

It seems that the church loaned money to Mac (almost $2 million) for him to purchase a plane (for himself), then forgave him much of that loan. Then, apparently, he leased it back to the church, and the church paid him more in plane rental per month than he was paying the church for the original loan. Also, the church paid Pastor Mac for storage of this AND ANOTHER plane (which is a STUNT plane) in his hanger, and paid other expenses for these planes.

http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/33410 "CREW Files Second Complaint Against LWCC"
http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/18964 "LWCC May Have Been Paying for Pastor's Stunt Plane"

I question whether leasing and maintaining a minister's private plane is a necessary or wise expense for a church. Yes, Pastor Mac travels on church business sometimes, to conferences and such, but we live in a major metropolitan area with plenty of commercial air service. Is leasing a private plane really the best use of church funds? Even if it is a legitimate expense, the whole scheme has turned into a profit-making venture for the Hammonds, in my opinion. That to me is an abuse of their position as leaders of the church. After this came to light, the church/Mac put the plane up for sale.
http://www.startribune.com/local/north/15724587.html "Dealing With Less Prosperity, Mac Hammond's Church Cuts Back"

This is complicated by the fact that Mac Hammond preaches a "prosperity gospel"--that God wants us to be "winners." While he preaches that there are some spiritual and other aspects of being a "winner," the emphasis is on the financial. He says God wants us to be wealthy. So if he owns a Porsche and a Lexus (which he did and might still) or wears nice suits, or his wife buys nice clothes, or if the church bought him a home for $250,000 in 1990, or he has two homes in Florida, (at least one of which the church helped him buy) then these are signs that he's blessed by God and "Walking the Winner's Way." These perks are things that he or the church staff have admitted to.

I agree that God does not require us to be poor. I just worry that the spiritual emphasis in this church is being used to justify the Hammonds' personal enrichment instead of for the benefit of God and the community. If a person wants to become rich, that's fine, but do it through your own private business and not through a tax-exempt, not-for-profit organization under the guise of serving the Lord.

If there were more democracy and openness in the selection of the church leadership, all of this might not be so troubling. There has been a 7-member board. Mac and Lynn serve on the board, as did the son of Kenneth Copeland, who is Mac's close friend and colleague. I don't know how the board members are chosen. In his Sunday talk about the IRS investigation on 2/11/07, Mac told the congregation that the board is an "independent entity" that "doesn't answer to me" and they establish the compensation. He didn't mention the fact that he, his wife and his close friend's son sit on the board. He didn't clarify whether these close people participate in setting the compensation. He didn't clarify how the side deals are made--the loans and the plane leasing and so forth. I wish he had been more thorough in sharing the facts. He said he was very well compensated, and said his compensation was within the norm for similar churches, yet wouldn't disclose what is salary was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as0K6_zRRgc Sunday Talk at LWCC Feb. '07 by M. Hammond

The IRS sent notice that it wished to investigate the church finances because of reports of apparent impropriety with all of these dealings for Pastor Mac's benefit. The church argued that the notice was improper because it didn't come from a high enough person in the IRS. The issue went to court and the Minnesota District Court dismissed the case on 1-30-09. This dismissal didn't say that the church did nothing wrong, and it didn't say that the IRS has no right to investigate (those questions were not raised). The dismissal was based on the IRS not following correct procedure in beginning the investigation. So the questions raised by the initial notice have not yet been answered.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11625664/US-v-Living-Word-1-09 U.S. v. Living Word Memorandum Opinion and Order 01-30-09

I have some other questions, like the relationship of Mac Hammond Ministries to the LWCC itself. Is that a separate organization from the church? Is it a non-profit entity? A for-profit entity? Why aren't these clearly explained? Are proceeds from Mac Hammond Ministries considered part of his LWCC compensation package, or are they an entirely separate matter? Is their a board of directors for the Mac Hammond Ministry and if so, how are the members selected? Also--Mac claims that he and his wife have been the biggest contributors over the life of LWCC. This might be true, but should we be expected to just take that as gospel without more information?

In the 2/11/07 talk (You Tube link above) Pastor Mac said, "I would almost welcome an IRS audit...I've labored for 25 years to dot every legal I and cross every legal T, and if they came and did an audit, I would like to know if there's something we're doing wrong. I want to change it, man, because I want to comply with the law." I don't think he meant, "Bring it on, IRS," in an "I dare you" way, but I think he was saying that he has nothing to fear.

Unfortunately, this whole thing is reminding me of those scams where people give and give to support a mission, but it turns out that little of the money is going to the mission, and much more is going to support the lavish lifestyle of a self-proclaimed preacher. I feel very sad.

I would welcome more information or comments from anyone familiar with LWCC.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,75128,75128#msg-75128 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:09:37 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74107#msg-74107 Sparky
“Dr. Glover is an emerging figure in the Men's Movement as crystallized by Iron John a decade ago . . . minus the hokey rituals.” The Seattle Times

(Iron John is aparently one of these 'warrior' teachers who sit around and bang drums and curse your mother and bemoan being mistreated by mean-ol'-women and society in general).

'Dr' Glover lists himself as a family and marriage consultant ("liscensed"!) in Washington state. Nowhere did I see if his "doctorate" was earned (Phd) or bought (bullshit). This guy looks like a maniac taking advantage of shy men WHO HAVE NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM. He preys upon their "weakness"(of which THEY HAVE NONE) to rob them of $125 bucks and up per "session". This guy is a guilt-salesmen. "You are not good enough to be a success in business, be successful with women (DATE 12 DIFFERENT WOMEN IN 12 WEEKS is one of this idiot's seminars) or, well, apparently most of his guilt is about being no longer inadequate with women, whatever the hell that means.

Now, Rick Ross always says that therapists should be licensed and formally trained. In some areas I understand you can get "licensed" merely by sending the state a cheque. Maybe Washington state is one such lax state.

Obviously, a 'therapist' so licensed with no formal training would not pass the Rick Ross smell test. I don't know about 'Dr.' Robert Glover's credentials (assuming he has any) but my nostrils are burning with a nasty stench comming off this clown.


Thanks for letting me rant!

DR. Sparky.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74107#msg-74107 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:31:40 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74105#msg-74105 Sparky
http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/

Does anyone know if this is the hypnotic cult that teaches shy men how to lie and misrepresent themselves to women at bars etc. for a hook-up? It sounds really smarmy and new-age bullshit.

Anyone with info on this would be great.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74105#msg-74105 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:08:20 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74099#msg-74099 deren84
Can you tell us what your therapy group is called and who it is run by if you know?

Thanks and goodluck with your struggle.[/quote]

well i got working on it because i thought it was gonna improve my life, just add some kind of boost

anyways, this pretty much got in the way of my goals....


the whole thing was real stupid, its makes to make you feel ashamed and guilty of your shame and guilt

then also uses guilt and shame to stop feeling guilt and shame for other things.. "get rid of the shame"

"under achievers just cant get rid of their shame"



anyways, anybody know a book so i can stop feeling this stuff? i know these ideas are stupid, i also feel like i hurt those around me by not doing certain things

like i need to reframe things or something




ill post the name of the group in a moment]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74099#msg-74099 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:15:58 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74089#msg-74089 Sparky
Can you tell us what your therapy group is called and who it is run by if you know?

Thanks and goodluck with your struggle.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74089#msg-74089 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:51:12 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,74079#msg-74079 Hope Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,20227,74079#msg-74079 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:23:53 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,12462,74064#msg-74064 deren84 Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,12462,74064#msg-74064 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:29:13 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74063#msg-74063 deren84
i accientally fallen into a therapy/self help cult, i didnt know it was a cult of course


thing is,

i feel extreme guilt

my eyes are a little swollen, and have tension headaches

and my head really aches, i feel guilty about the stupidest things

(i didnt know this amount of guilt was possible to feel)


i wish i could go outside but the guilt of being around others seems to hit me real strong]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,74063,74063#msg-74063 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:27:45 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,12462,72495#msg-72495 Kastlefeer
... a bump no less.]]> Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?10,12462,72495#msg-72495 Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:00:12 +0200