http://forum.rickross.com/index.php EN Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:49:24 +0200 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:49:24 +0200 Cult Education Forum Phorum 5.1.25 60 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?5,123,58649#msg-58649 SwampHoss Former Cult Members and Affected Families http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?5,123,58649#msg-58649 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:49:24 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58648#msg-58648 Committed2U Destructive Churches http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58648#msg-58648 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:58:54 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58647#msg-58647 BraveHeart
"at the feast of ego, everyone leaves hungry"]]> Destructive Churches http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58647#msg-58647 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:46:47 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58646#msg-58646 zeuszor "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58646#msg-58646 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:39:23 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58645#msg-58645 Vera City
Yes, thanks zeuzor to you and your friend.]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58645#msg-58645 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:35:58 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58644#msg-58644 zeuszor "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58644#msg-58644 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:32:00 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58643#msg-58643 Vera City Schein’s research:

This is how we get coerced without much difficulty through the group.
It sounds very academic, but it is exactly what happens in the Jagad Guru Chris Butler cult.

[quote]”Schein's analysis of the behavioral sequence underlying coercive persuasion separated the process into three subphases: unfreezing, change, refreezing …”
“Unfreezing is the first step in eliciting behavior and developing a belief system that facilitates the long-term management of a person. It consists of attempting to undercut a person's psychological basis for resisting demands for behavioral compliance to the routines and rituals of the reform program. The goals of unfreezing are to destabilize a person's sense of identity (i.e., to precipitate an identity crisis), to diminish confidence in prior social judgments, and to foster a sense of powerlessness, if not hopelessness. Successful destabilization induces a negative shift in global self evaluations and increases uncertainty about one's values and position in society. It thereby reduces resistance to the new demands for compliance while increasing suggestibility.”

“Destabilization of identity is accomplished by bringing into play varying sets of manipulative techniques. … Contemporary programs have been observed to utilize far more psychologically sophisticated procedures to accomplish destabilization. These techniques are often adapted from the traditions of psychiatry, psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and the human-potential movement, as well as from religious practice.”

“The change phase allows the individual an opportunity to escape punishing destabilization procedures by demonstrating that he or she has learned the proffered ideology, can demonstrate an ability to interpret reality in its own terms, and is willing to participate in competition with peers to demonstrate zeal, through displays of commitment. …”

“... Some of the practices designed to promote influence might include requiring the target to assume responsibility for the progress of less- advanced "students," to become the responsibility of those further along in the program, to assume the role of a teacher of the ideology, or to develop ever more refined and detailed confession statements that recast the person's former life in terms of the required ideological position. Group structure is often manipulated by making rewards or punishments …making status and privilege changes commensurate with behavioral compliance, subjecting the target to strong criticism and humiliation from peers for lack of progress, and peer monitoring for expressions of reservations or dissent. If progress is unsatisfactory, the individual can again be subjected to the punishing destabilization procedures used during unfreezing to undermine identity, to humiliate, and to provoke feelings of shame and guilt.”

“Refreezing denotes an attempt to promote and reinforce behavior acceptable to the controlling organization. Satisfactory performance is rewarded with social approval, status gains, and small privileges. Part of the social structure of the environment is the norm of interpreting the target's display of the desired conduct as demonstrating the person's progress in understanding the errors of his or her former life. The combination of reinforcing approved behavior and interpreting its symbolic meaning as demonstrating the emergence of a new individual fosters the development of an environment-specific, supposedly reborn social identity. The person is encouraged to claim this identity and is rewarded for doing so.”[/quote]

The following document shows Jagad Guru Chris Butler advising a follower how to recruit someone. I clearly illustrates that he did not use any force, but the power of peer influence.
Recruitment Lesson 101
People trust their friends more…

[IMG]http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/Dassilassi/1987-88PersonalAffairs016.jpg[/IMG]]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58643#msg-58643 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:27:49 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58642#msg-58642 Vera City
Once a person is out of a controlled environment and can freely access information and associate with anyone, thought reform often breaks down.

The key factor most frequently in breaking down a thought reform program, is recognizing how it works, which includes sorting through the cult experience and understanding how it specifically relates to cult dynamics and the coercive persuasion process.

See http://www.rickross.com/recovery.html

...

The key most often to successful recovery is realizing how controlling dynamics of the group work and not blaming yourself.[/quote]
This is so true. It was the experience of a friend who constantly blamed herself for staying in the cult for so long. It took her years to realize what had happened. She blamed herself, she blamed the group, but never Jagad Guru for the longest time. But I don't think she ever saw these letters until after she left.

Some of us pride ourselves as being too free and intelligent of a thinker to know how very vulnerable we really are...

Another former member was criticised cruelly for being so brainwashed and for staying in the group for a decade. It doesn't help people when family, friends, or strangers on a forum to blast a former member for succumbed to a cult, especially if you don't know their coercive methods can come in nice packages too. My friend was also told that there must have been child abuse, violence, drugs to make people stay. Every time my friend said it wasn't like that, he got called a liar and brainwashed. So after being long gone from the cult, he got abuse from people who should have listened and cared. Fortunately, he is doing very well in life and doesn't blame himself.

[quote rrmoderator]
Many people leave cult groups without this specific type of recognition and therefore they may not experience a total recovery. In such cases bits and pieces of cult programming may remain intact and thus exacerbate their recovery.

Some former members of cults may then subsequently join another cult or cult-like group, going from one cult to another, because they have not yet recognized what a cult is and how a cult's coercive persuasion techniques work.

Former cult members may sadly even blame themselves, rather than recognize what the cult did that hurt them and/or how the power of coercive persuasion was a pivotal factor.[/quote]
This did happen to a lot of Chris Butler followers. When Jagad Guru CB proclaimed himself the new messiah after the death of ACB and taking a wife, people just flew from the frying pan to the fire. They just found other gurus. Maybe some were genuine religious leaders. I don't know. The criteria you speak about - how to recognize coersive persuation - needs to be tested on them too.

I think that you are right in saying that we need to know exactly HOW the cult was able to turn us the way they did and not feel bad about it if it happened to us.

There's more in the Ofshe article I was really impressed about. It follows:]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58642#msg-58642 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:13:09 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58641#msg-58641 BraveHeart
It sounds like one of Tonys goons trying to poke fun at the victiums of this church/CULT. or its another way to for them to come on to this fourm and try to discredit the testimonys of what is really going on in this church.

I challange Tony Cunningham to come out from hiding behind his brainwashed elders and soma students and give an account to all the victiums and readers on the fourm...

but that will not happen EVER! Tony is too much a controling manipulative arrogant guy to ever face the ones he has wronged.]]> Destructive Churches http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58641#msg-58641 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:59:23 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58640#msg-58640 The Anticult A local street drug dealer loanshark?
Then what? He gets knifed?

Could you imagine if they did a controlled study on homelessness and Landmark?
Take a random group of homeless people, send 1/3 to Landmark, 1/3 to a legit homeless program with job-training and support services, and 1/3 as a control group.

That is all they would have to do.
Landmark has probably secretly tried tests like that using regular people, and they all failed horribly, that is why there are no proper published studies.
They probably end up much worse than the control group who does nothing.

Landmark is a simple-complex Confidence Trick. Its Werner Erhard's self-replicating money-machine Confidence Trick.]]> Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58640#msg-58640 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:46:40 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,58639#msg-58639 sistersoap [url=http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,page=61]Page 61[/url]

Look at Juker's testimony about Bob's ministry from the 60's through the 80's. I think he sums it up pretty well, when there are no checks and balances, (in the biblical realm, like at least 2 elders, plus 2 deacons) then a very destructive church can form.

I really don't think it started out as a personality cult, but it sure ended that way.

KCjones[/quote]


HI KC,
Good answer! Glad to see you...

Sis]]> Destructive Churches http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,58639#msg-58639 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:22:52 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,58638#msg-58638 The Anticult
Lying: in the LGAT field, they all believe that "all beliefs are lies". There is some truth to that, in that all beliefs are "constructs". But they abuse that by saying...since all beliefs are lies, then there is no such thing as a lie. So then they can say anything they want, no regard for the facts. They become Confidence Artists.

I do agree that a lot of men go into an Ego-Trip about how they are the best at being Ego-less!!
They are basically saying...my Ego is so small it doesn't exist, so that means I am the best!!
As Jon Stewart might say...that is very high on the douchebag scale.

Neale Donald Walsch participated in a blatant Love-Bomb technique for Byron Katie as shown earlier in the thread. My guess is that was some type of book cross-marketing deal. I do not know about his groups, but perhaps the problem there would be if they focussed on HIS writings, or like Eckhart Tolle on his writings only. Its weird how the human power dynamic always seems to screw these things up?

One thing I wanted to drop in.
The Zimbardo Stanford Prison Experiment.
He put normal people into an environment, and they started going berserk with Power. A must read.
More info here. http://www.zimbardo.com/
Zimbardo has a new book that looks interesting.
The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil, by Philip Zimbardo


This made me think of the Siddha Yoga group.The POWER the leaders ended up having over people led to people literally going berserk with power, sexual abuses on a large scale, and just outrageous behavior. The Power dynamic feeds into itself.
Also about SYDA, it seems some of the former members of Siddha Yoga has some profound "spiritual experiences" at the time.
One wonders how many of them have considered the idea that maybe someone in the Siddha group slipped something into their tea or beverage?
For example Rajneesh- Osho followers often took the drug "ecstasy".

Osho / Rajneesh Cult Introduced Ecstacy to the West
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,55236,55338

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to think of a way to drop a little into the tea or water, or even just give it to a few people, or use a little LSD, or a mix of drugs, etc. That clearly happens.
So if a person was slipped that type of drug at an event, even a small dose, they would think it was the practice that did it. But what if it was a drug? If you never feel that again away from the place, it probably was a drug. People get drugged all the time, even by people in bars.

Also, there are those who are promoting so-called "entheogens" (psychedelics, ecstasy, MDMA, Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, etc) to try to achieve altered states of Oneness with the Universe. What are these guys smoking? Well...
One assumes they never learned the first lesson in Rec-Drug use...you NEVER GET THAT FIRST HIGH AGAIN. So when you do ecstacy, you never hit that high again, and you keep going back, trying other stuff. Next thing you know, you are getting "wasted" every week or day. "Wasted" is a better word, more accurate.

The irony is they are simply taking in chemicals which affect neurotransmitters in the brain. Brain scientists are now clearly showing some of these drugs cause brain damage. (of course there are Shamanic traditions, etc, so there is more to the story).

But, the use of drugs has been rampant in this area for decades, so its not a stretch to think some Guru's henchmen use it on groups of people without their awareness.]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,58638#msg-58638 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:22:33 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,58637#msg-58637 sistersoap

Hello, Irritated,
Thanks for asking!

If you are totally UNFAMILIAR with Thieme, what brought you here?

I might also add that the posts of SpirituaLiberty are well worth perusing. You can use the search feature to find them.

But it is REALLY WORTH WHILE going back through the entire thread, even if it takes you a long long time in order to become acquainted with the characters here. I know, sometimes it makes even veterans' eyes glaze over when we have gotten behind reading posts for a while, but there are many treasures here for those who dig.

Sistersoap]]> Destructive Churches http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,58637#msg-58637 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:21:42 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58636#msg-58636 Zorro
This is just plain sickening. This poor homeless guy is going to borrow money, which is probably a fortune to him, and give it to Landmark. These F'n Landmark bastards will probably gladly take this poor guys money.

What makes this even worse is that it's obvious the Homeless guy is trying to better himself and has enough respect for himself to try to pay for the course. Unfortunately the guy doesn't know what he's getting himself into.

If I was there I would probably actually go and try to find this guy and intervene and halt his recruitment into Landmark.

This really makes me mad!]]> Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58636#msg-58636 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:37:07 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58633#msg-58633 Zorro
Landmark does not like victims...a homeless person has probably bought into a pretty severe victim state that landmark will probably think even their "powerful" technology cannot cure.

But we will see...maybe they are desperate enough :-)

This post is not intended to be cruel or heartless. I feel for the homeless person. I just don't think doing landmark is right for him/her - or anyone.[/quote]

Ahhh...the irony here....they (Landmark) take "well" and "responsible" people and make them "unwell" and "not responsible"....Takes a "nonvictim" and creates a "victim".....takes a person that isn't "homeless" and puts them in a situation that can cause them to be "homeless"...]]> Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58633#msg-58633 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:10:53 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58632#msg-58632 yutolia Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58632#msg-58632 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:06:34 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58631#msg-58631 rrmoderator
Once a person is out of a controlled environment and can freely access information and associate with anyone, thought reform often breaks down.

The key factor most frequently in breaking down a thought reform program, is recognizing how it works, which includes sorting through the cult experience and understanding how it specifically relates to cult dynamics and the coercive persuasion process.

See http://www.rickross.com/recovery.html

This is an entire subsection of the Web site devoted to recovery issues.

The key most often to successful recovery is realizing how controlling dynamics of the group work and not blaming yourself.

Many people leave cult groups without this specific type of recognition and therefore they may not experience a total recovery. In such cases bits and pieces of cult programming may remain intact and thus exacerbate their recovery.

Some former members of cults may then subsequently join another cult or cult-like group, going from one cult to another, because they have not yet recognized what a cult is and how a cult's coercive persuasion techniques work.

Former cult members may sadly even blame themselves, rather than recognize what the cult did that hurt them and/or how the power of coercive persuasion was a pivotal factor.]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58631#msg-58631 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:39:22 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?5,58575,58630#msg-58630 tsukimoto
It is a problem that SGI claims that chanting and working for the organization keeps you safe and healthy. And, that by extension, disagreeing with, or leaving the organization will cause bad things to happen to you.

One guy that I know was told this by leaders. He pointed out that one of our national leaders from Georgia died of cancer, a leader from New York lost his teenage son (who was also active in the organization) to an accident, a leader from California was on one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center on 9/11 -- and a leader from New Jersey also lost her husband on 9/11; he worked in one of the World Trade Center towers. These people were all extremely devoted to SGI, spending many hours in organizational activities, chanting with others, and trying to convert others. If not practicing and supporting SGI brings bad karma upon you -- and supporting SGI and constant chanting brings good karma -- why weren't these people protected?

The leader's response? "Well, you cannot know what someone else's karma is."

"Exactly my point," said the guy.]]> Former Cult Members and Affected Families http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?5,58575,58630#msg-58630 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:35:04 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58629#msg-58629 Vera City What follows are more highlights of the article:
[quote]

Comments related to Jagad Guru Chris Butler’s group in brackets follow. Others familiar with CB can add a lot more:

[b]“ The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:

1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance[/b]

[e.g., You can only know g0d through guru. Your whole life up to the point of complete surrender to guru, (which 99% of you will not succeed according to Jagad Guru), is a useless ride on the wheel of birth and death. You are really in trouble if you are born a woman. You are ten times more materialistic and will in no way get liberated unless you marry a man pleasing to guru, of which 99% will not. Better luck next life time and hope you are born a man. Every time your guru gets sick it’s your fault because he is taking on your karma. If you are gay, you might as well just kill yourself and start over on the wheel again. If you want to make love to your pious wife, be prepared to get kicked in the ass, sex is a sin unless you want a kid. There’s more, but you get the idea. vc]

[b]2. The use of an organized peer group[/b]
[e.g., The head honchos and prima donna’s have taken over the show for the reclusive, misanthropic guru. Who collects the tithes and manages the money? The sleeper cells seem to be all over the world now in different disguises; yoga, meditation, health food, internet services, politics. vc]
[b]
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity[/b]
[There are always people in these groups who love being the purity police. The culture becomes very insular and constricted, which gives many a sense of security, clarity, and self righteousness. This fact makes it all the more insidious. Participants are not even aware that their sense of surety has no center and will not hold. Ex followers have many stories to illustrate this one. vc]
[b]
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified[/b]
[as above. vc][/quote]

[b][quote]([from the Ofshe article]The programs are, however, impressive in their ability to prepare targets for integration into and long-term participation in the organizations that operate them.”

“ Rather than assuming that individual belief change is the major goal of these programs, it is perhaps more productive to view the programs as elaborate role-training regimes. That is, as resocialization programs in which targets are being prepared to conduct themselves in a fashion appropriate for the social roles they are expected to occupy …”
“The tactical dimension most clearly distinguishing reform processes from other sorts of training programs is the reliance on psychological coercion: procedures that generate pressure to comply as a means of escaping a punishing experience (e.g., public humiliation, sleep deprivation, guilt manipulation, etc.)… Coercion is principally utilized to gain behavioral compliance at key points and to ensure participation in activities likely to have influencing effects; that is, to engage the person in the role training activities and in procedures likely to lead to strong emotional responses, to cognitive confusion, or to attributions to self as the source of beliefs promoted during the process.”[/quote][/b]

more on this article later-]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58629#msg-58629 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:59:01 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58628#msg-58628 Vera City
By recognizing this process it is possible to sort through what is brought about by coercion and what is not.

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing8.html[/quote][/b]

It took me awhile to read through this, but was well worth it. There’s a lot there and I’m only touching on a few points of interest. For me, it answered some lingering questions. I’m going to try to break down the article into digestible bites and relate them to the Jagad Guru Chris Butler group. Using it as a template to examine the Butler group, I’d like to share what made sense to me. Quotes from the article will illustrate my comments.

I wondered what the research said about how permanent the damage was after leaving a cult. The good news is that once out of the environment and with a supportive social structure that “reformed thoughts” do not last. While the stresses of a cult can cause psychiatric disorders, it depends on the level of stress inflicted and the history of the participant.

From the research it appears that the most powerful aspect of maintaining coercive persuasion lies more in the social context than in the so-called spiritual message or philosophy. In other words, the environment, culture, and social structure play the most important role in maintaining a participant’s continued engagement in the cult. It is not guru or even philosophy dependent. I was often puzzled by the fact that many cult members have never met the charismatic Jagad Guru Chris Butler and yet are devoted followers. The lectures and videotapes in no way replicate an in-person experience. I like Schein’s take on this which follows later. This seems to be the reason why people who do not follow the groups’ regimen religiously (sorry for the bad pun) continue to stay and believe.

This also explained the fact that even after people had suspicions about Butler that they continued to stay in the group. The group itself sustained the myth with no effort from Butler (unless he needed money). For example; when he married after taking the vow of sanyass (celibate monk) it was uncomfortably accepted; when he began fining people for offenses, they paid up; when he started to berate homosexuals, his gay and lesbian followers stayed (for awhile). The study did not indicate how long it takes to undo thought reform, only that it is doable even after years of participation with proper supports and services. Obviously it depends on a lot of things. The main thing is how much hope there is for people to regain themselves after being in a cult.

By implication the research makes the case to provide a positive social support structure to assist in recovery. In other words, don’t underestimate the power of the social group in shaping one’s recovery. A common theme I have noticed with ex Chris Butler followers in helping them to get out and recover were a loving family, close friend, or spouse. There are also those that kept one foot in the real world or somehow were able to operate on the periphery of the cult and did not need to recreate an outside support system. Grandmother was right when she said to be careful of the company you keep!

While recovery is possible, lost years and resources in the cult are not.

The following Ofshe quote shows how much the peer group is employed to keep the follower in cult bondage.

[b][quote]“…the utilization of coercive persuasion's key effective-influence mechanisms: a focused attack on the stability of a person's sense of self; reliance on peer group interaction; the development of interpersonal bonds between targets and their controllers and peers; and an ability to control communication among participants.”[/quote][/b]

These following paragraphs explain how a cult is strongly dependant on the sociological structure it makes one inhabit; but, that the reformed thoughts are actually not that fixed. People are remarkably adaptable for good or for bad according to the environment.
[b][quote]“The surprising aspect of the situationally adaptive response is that the attitudes that develop are unstable. They tend to change dramatically once the person is removed from an environment that has totalistic properties and is organized to support the adaptive attitudes. Once removed from such an environment, the person is able to interact with others who permit and encourage the expression of criticisms and doubts, which were previously stifled because of the normative rules of the reform environment (Schein 1961, p. 163; Lifton 1961, pp. 87-116, 399-415; Ofshe and Singer 1986). This pattern of change, first in one direction and then the other, dramatically highlights the profound importance of social support in the explanation of attitude change and stability.

“Statements supportive of the proffered ideology that indicate adaptive attitude change during the period of the target's involvement in the reform environment and immediately following separation should not be taken as mere playacting in reaction to necessity. Targets tend to become genuinely involved in the interaction. The reform experience focuses on genuine vulnerabilities as the method for undermining self-concept: manipulating genuine feelings of guilt about past conduct; inducing the target to make public denunciations of his or her prior life as being unworthy; and carrying this forward through interaction with peers for whom the target develops strong bonds. Involvement developed in these ways prevents the target from maintaining both psychological distance or emotional independence from the experience.”

“The relatively rare instances in which belief changes are internalized and endure have been analyzed as attributable to the degree to which the acquired belief system and imposed peer relations function fully to resolve the identity crisis that is routinely precipitated during the first phase of the reform process… “

“The rate at which a once-attained level of attitude change deteriorates depends on the type of social support the person receives over time (Schein 1961 pp. 158-166; Lifton pp. 399-415)…. even when the reform process is to some degree successful at shaping behavior and attitudes, the new shape tends to be maintained only as long as temperature is appropriately controlled.”

“Programs identified as thought reforming are not very effective at actually changing people's beliefs in any fashion that endures apart from an elaborate supporting social context. Evaluated only on the criterion of their ability genuinely to change beliefs, the programs have to be judged abject failures and massive wastes of effort.”[/quote][/b]

This explains why many people who have left the cult go back to the religion in which they were raised or just live by their original ideals. They are able to recover their old personalities if they have not suffered significant psychological injuries during the reform process which requires treatment.

What was surprising to me is that the less violent the coercion, the more effective it is. The article describes that the most effective re-education camps in China never employed violence. Instead they offered study groups and social activities to reshape the mentality. Richard Ofshe’s research also indicated that free will is also not affected. He showed how people are “coerced to allow themselves to be persuaded”. The reason many ex followers of Chris Butler believe they were never coerced or “brainwashed” or even that it is much of a cult is because of the “style” of thought reform Jagad Guru employed, which did not force, and is apparently the most effective form of coercion.

His was a more “beautiful” and seductive form of persuasion that gave one a sense of having had a mellow spiritual experience, but none the less dangerous. The intensity, the drug effect experienced through the chanting, kirtans, the rural Hawaiian lifestyle was pleasant and light. But the light was luciferic and blinding. In no way was it comparable to something like the punishingly frantic Rajneesh kirtans or being forced to listen to hours of Jim Jones lectures. It was a gentle subjugation difficult to resist. “Siddha: A Very Gentle Force” indeed (the name of his album of music). Who could imagine the man who sang Donovan-like sweet songs, could be operating from the darkest shadows.
[b][quote]“ …what happened was a subjection to "unusually intense and prolonged persuasion" that they could not avoid; thus, "they were coerced into allowing themselves to be persuaded" (Schein 1961, p. 18).”

…”Although no evidence suggests that thought reform is a process capable of stripping a person of the will to resist, a relationship does exist between thought reform and changes in psychiatric status. The stress and pressure of the reform process cause some percentage of psychological casualties…Studies of contemporary programs have reported on a variety of psychological injuries related to the reform process. Injuries include psychosis, major depressions, manic episodes, and debilitating anxiety”

“A second myth concerns the purported effects of brainwashing. Media reports about thought reform's effects far exceed the findings of scientific studies--which show coercive persuasion's upper limit of impact to be that of inducing personal confusion and significant, but typically transitory, attitude change. Brainwashing was promoted as capable of stripping victims of their capacity to assert their wills, thereby rendering them unable to resist the orders of their controllers. People subjected to "brainwashing" were not merely influenced to adopt new attitudes but, according to the myth, suffered essentially an alteration in their psychiatric status from normal to pathological, while losing their capacity to decide to comply with or resist orders.

This lurid promotion of the power of thought reforming influence techniques to change a person's capacity to resist direction is entirely without basis in fact: No evidence, scientific or otherwise, supports this proposition. No known mental disorder produces the loss of will that is alleged to be the result of brainwashing. Whatever behavior and attitude changes result from exposure to the process, they are most reasonably classified as the responses of normal individuals to a complex program of influence…” [/quote][/b]]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58628#msg-58628 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:54:37 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,58627#msg-58627 solea13
I have a few comments about some previous issues that were raised.

- The 'lying' thing - Anticult is correct. In the mind of a cult member it is okay to lie because yes, the ends do justify the means as follows: "It's okay because we lie with intention to [i]help[/i] not hurt people."

(I am not a scientologist but I think it is highly likely that is their modus operandi also. In former days I might have stood up for Scientologists 'freedom of belief and religion'. Now I think new Scientologists are mind controlled from the moment they take their first e-meter test. There is no freedom of mind there.)

My Guru even told us that he lied to trick us onto the spiritual path, because if he had told us the truth [i]we would not have followed[/i] the spiritual path. We all laughed heartily along with that one. [i]Of course[/i] we wouldn't have. Didn't he tell us that the spiritual path is hot and bitter? God was always 'testing' us in ever more ingenious ways to make sure of our commitment. It was hard work! Normal people are much too selfish and base (read: sensible, grounded) to follow the spiritual path voluntarily !!! Hahaha.

- On the Elizabeth Gilbert thing, as soon as you go on that 'Eat Pray Love' blog you are bombarded by merchandising. T-shirts, hats, mugs etc. with quotes from the book. Not only is Gilbert becoming a mini-guru in her own right, people are also swooning to see this 'Richard from Texas' guy, who is a real-live 'character' from the book. Apparently he understands something about 'soul-mates' that the ordinary person is unable to perceive. (Oh, by the way your soul-mate sounds like a royal pain in the a** from the way he describes it. I'd rather just hang with someone who I get along with, personally.)

At the bottom of the blog they jokingly refer to mis-spellings of Gilbert's book title. One of those seems particularly appropriate to me, it is: 'Eat [i]Prey[/i] Love' (Just go to the Oprah message boards about the book to see how people's lives are being affected by it.)

- Steve Sashen (sorry to point fingers, but this needs to be said): As soon as I went on his blog and saw the Anti-guru thing, my stomach turned over. I have been involved in a cult for over ten years. I have just about seen it all in terms of the weird things that happen to people when they get 'spiritual'. Particularly with men (sorry guys) who have even a small amount of knowledge of the way that gurus and spiritual groups function. After a while they start thinking of themselves if not as Jesus, then something pretty darn close to Jesus. The humble thing is just an act and they are setting themselves up to be your guru as in: "Don't follow gurus. I'm not a guru, follow me!"

It's a whole new sophisticated level of guru-dom, the 'meta-guru' if you will. As Anticult says, they are much more casual and approachable. The guru in jeans and a t-shirt.

Finally, yeah. The whole thing about small groups of like-minded people who just get together and chat about spirtual matters sounds nice. Maybe that is what Neale Donald Walshe originally intended when he started 'Conversations with God' discussion groups.

Which brings things back finally to his fawningly uncritical endorsement of Byron Katie (Got to get the thread back on topic somehow!) and the ways that even small discussion groups can go horribly astray :) ...]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,58627#msg-58627 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:48:12 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58626#msg-58626 just-googling
Please understand that this thread has been literally plagued with trolls.

People have come here repeatedly with ulterior motives and hidden agendas, i.e. to somehow minimize the damage done by Chris Butler and/or attempt to shift the blame.

The documents you have added are interesting, but there is reason to believe that you may have posted here earlier under the name "Zelig."

Zelig was banned and posting under more than one name is against the rules.[/quote]


Somehow, I don't think a "troll" who was trying to protect Chris Butler would be posting these documents (such as these letters posted by Vera City)...

these documents show the other side of Chris Butler, the side that they want to keep secret ... the side that is not seen by the television cameras!]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58626#msg-58626 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:46:10 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58625#msg-58625 rrmoderator
When did the "Cult of Butler" site launch?

Do you recall the date?

It seems to me that it was some time after March 2004 wasn't it?

Everyone has their place and right to express opinions etc.

There is no one way or source.]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58625#msg-58625 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:55:51 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,58624#msg-58624 kcjones [url=http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,page=61]Page 61[/url]

Look at Juker's testimony about Bob's ministry from the 60's through the 80's. I think he sums it up pretty well, when there are no checks and balances, (in the biblical realm, like at least 2 elders, plus 2 deacons) then a very destructive church can form.

I really don't think it started out as a personality cult, but it sure ended that way.

KCjones]]> Destructive Churches http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,58624#msg-58624 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:44:28 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58623#msg-58623 jp27
Was the homeless guy receptive to your friend Matt? Is Matt going to pay for the Homeless guy or is Landmark going to give him one of their "Scholarships"?[/quote]


The homeless guy lives in the alley near landmark. Matt claims the homeless guy is gonna get the 300 from a friend of his. Matt needs just has much help has the homeless guy. His cricital thinking is gone.]]> Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58623#msg-58623 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:35:48 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58622#msg-58622 nettie
Landmark does not like victims...a homeless person has probably bought into a pretty severe victim state that landmark will probably think even their "powerful" technology cannot cure.

But we will see...maybe they are desperate enough :-)

This post is not intended to be cruel or heartless. I feel for the homeless person. I just don't think doing landmark is right for him/her - or anyone.]]> Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58605,58622#msg-58622 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:55:12 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58534,58621#msg-58621 rrmoderator
Please focus on those issues and facts that are directly relevant to the topic of this thread.]]> Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,58534,58621#msg-58621 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:26:41 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58620#msg-58620 rrmoderator
Answering a question with a question is evasive.

You went to RLC and you said that they have "their own version of 'koolaid.'"

What specifically do you mean by that?]]> Destructive Churches http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,23121,58620#msg-58620 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:24:33 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58619#msg-58619 rrmoderator
Stop the snide remarks and flaming, which is against the rules.

Such posts of personal attacks waste space on this thread and are off topic.]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58619#msg-58619 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:20:36 +0200 http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58618#msg-58618 SoI Kills
Yes, cultofbutler is part of an elaborate plot, under the direction of Chris Butler, built specifically to hide these documents. That's why we transcribed them and published them on a site.. oh wait... I'm not sure Chris has thought this through.]]> "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements" http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,4453,58618#msg-58618 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:04:15 +0200