Cult Education Forum

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] Re: My bad Quest experience

Hopeful Soul — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 05:52:45 +0100

Sensitive angel soul,

You said some things that could be expected from the Quest phase of Impact Trainings, but what you said leaves me wondering if this is the right Quest, or some other LGAT that has popped up someplace on earth using the Quest name. The instructor names, Buster and Nu, are indeed strange, and I have never heard them associated with the Utah Impact Trainings Quest incarnation of an LGAT. By all means keep covered your identity, but shed some more light if you can on some detail that would allow us to identify any link between your QUEST and Impact Trainings. A group including yourself and 19 other "delegates" doesn't sound like the Impact Trainings Quest, unless the recession is really cutting into training numbers.

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] Re: PSI Seminars: Legal Action?

Steve989 — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:34:30 +0100

James Ray is selling his $4,000,000.00 home. and the rumor is he selling it for five million in order to pad his legal war chest. I heard someone say they wouldn't be surprised to see him flea the country. Jane should take a hint and sell the ranch.

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] Re: Mankind project

Sparky — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:30:42 +0100

SeekingTruth, thanks for the very enlightening posts from "survivors" of MKP. I really enjoyed them and think anyone who is lurking here should read before going to the crazy MKP weekend.

floatingfreebear, What rrmoderator gave you is simple and to the point and does not need much to "research on". This is posted here and elsewhere on this website and reiterated again and again. As an 'elder' of MKP you have a vested interest in keeping the insecure men rolling through the ever-chewing MKP maw.

I question the tax-exempt status the USA apparently gives your org. With all the mental damage done, perhaps instead of a government-run health scheme the country would be better served taxing your org to help pay for the strain on the mental health system.

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] Re: Mankind project

floatingfreebear — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 01:16:24 +0100

good evening everyone,

with your permission, may we bottom-line this?

i think it's safe to say that you want mkp to hang out the "out of business" sign.
i think it's safe to say that is not going to happen.

there are a lot of things you know about mkp and you don't like and you want to warn people away or at least give them a lot more information before they make a choice to attend an MKP retreat. fine. i support you in what you do.

beyond that, allowing creativity to extend to dishonesty does not work. that is, trying to create a link between the Ray/Sedona incident and mkp simply because they both do sweats is not honest. promoting "guilt by association" is wrong. by doing these things, you "become what you eat".

now these words may seem a bit harsh, but i think it's best to be upfront.

you all make a lot of valid points and mkp has made a lot of changes (including its "vetting" process for attendees) due to the incidences you state.
and anyone can bring just as much (if not more) data espousing the positives of mkp.
and we can debate ad nauseum...

i don't want to do that.

so, i am happy that this forum exists for:
1. those who need a haven like this.
2. those who can get "the other point of view" that might help them in their choice of workshop attendances
3. historical references.

so, please keep on doing what you're doing AND do it with the utmost intent of honesty and integrity.

thank you.

ffb

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] Re: Landmark is closing its office in Amsterdam

MartinH — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 01:07:50 +0100

see below from the Landmark official website ... London is more heavily affected by the economic crisis .. all lies

The Netherlands Now Served by Our London Office
Unfortunately, because of current economic conditions, the Amsterdam office has closed. Thank you for your participation. We appreciate the difference you�ve made for yourself and others.
We hope to continue to serve you through one of our other 100 locations worldwide. Please contact Landmark Education UK Limited in London.

[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

brainwashed — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 00:30:19 +0100

moderator -

Perhaps you should create a new forum for Gary Coons. It is impossible to restrict the comments to JH without mentioning Gary, so unless you want to allow comments about him in this forum it will be difficult to discuss JH as Gary was attached to his hip at all times. Also because its many peoples belief that when JH went away for those years he was having a relationship with him... so how can we separate those two when everyone wants to talk about coercion of young men into sexual activities (which Gary was his most successful) ?

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: My experience in Falun Gong

Freedomtochoose — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:30:12 +0100

Hi alrick888,

Thanks for the response. What I like about this forum is that everyone is free to share what they believe. And I respect your opinions. I also just have some opinions that are different.

For example, I know that the teacher of Falun Gong has said that there are to be no heirarchies in Falun Gong, but in my opinion, in the workings of the group, there are and it was this heirarchy that told me not to report a rape. In addition, I read in one of the teacher's readings that the teacher says that he is God, that he is greater than anything on this earth, so in my opinion that is a heirarchy.

And as far as the depression. I have felt bad everyday for the last 6 years, and I'm really not exagerating. I have felt so bad that I thought I would have to go to the hospital that I couldn't take the pain. I have lost my appetite for about 4 years. I have anxiety to the point where I feel like I can't breath, in addition to many other symptoms. In my opinion I am depressed and I need treatment, which I am recieving.

And as for the rape, that man did many aweful things to me over a period of a day and a half, all the while I was saying no and tring to break free from him but I couldn't, he was too strong. And at one point, against my will, he put his private part in me and raped me. I don't think it is fair for someone to suggest that any woman who has been raped was just rumminating about something. To this day, I am scared of men and feel as if they are going to hurt me when they come too close. I have gone through extreme suffering because of this. In my opinion, I was raped.

I am definitly not here to convence you to practice Falun Gong or not. I'm not even here to say that Falun Gong is a cult or not a cult. In my opinion, it does follow under the catagory of a mind control group according to the academic Lifton, who has been widly recognized as an expert on the subject. But to be honest, how can I know what is right or wrong, because I'm just human. I can believe something to be true in my heart, but I could always be wrong. I am just here to share my feelings, to share what was my experience in the group.

To be honest I'm still very scared. I'm scared that I will go to Hell for saying what I'm saying. But that just doesn't seem fair to me. Why should I be "eliminated" and go to hell for just saying something that happened to me or for just sharing my opinion. I hope this is not the truth, because it would make for a pretty aweful world.

Well, I hope I haven't offended you in any way, as that was definitly not what I would want to do. I wish you luck in whatever path you are on.

Freedomtochoose

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: My experience in Falun Gong

Hope — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:08:47 +0100

[u]I can just ask: did it feel like rape at the time it occurred, or was it only later when you started ruminating about it that made you realize this was rape?[/u]

Surely you are kidding?

Please explain who "ordinary people" are.

[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

Anonymous2009 — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:52:46 +0100

I don't think anything was reported back in the 70's and 80's, not until after it was publicly exposed.

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: Twelve Tribes Theology/Eschatology

nabashalam — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:50:17 +0100

Man I am really sorry! I had no idea we couldn't do that. I spose I didn't read the fine print...Once again, I sincerely apologize... It won't happen again...

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: Twelve Tribes Theology/Eschatology

rrmoderator — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:54:32 +0100

nabashalam:

Posting contact information is against the rules you agreed to before posting here.

The information has been removed.

Don't break the rules again.

You may use the private messaging system after 10 completed posts.

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] Re: Mankind project

SeekingTruth — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:31:25 +0100

[quote floatingfreebear]

i do understand that there is a lot of hurt, pain, & emotion surrounding many who attended MKP weekends. It wasn't for them.

[/quote]

One of thre BIG problems with LGATs is that in the ever increasing search for paying punters pre-selection and vetting is not an issue. If MKP is as benign as ffb implies then how come guys are even reporting negative experiences let alone committing suicide. Smoke and fire spring to mind and I'm not talking about sweat lodges. These guys could have been filtered out of the process at the beginning. Yet MKP accepted them in the arrogant believe that amateur Jungian / Gestault experiences supervised by untrained amateurs will heal hurts from the past. But then the amateurish (infantile) culture endemic in MKP indicates that it obviously does not have professionals even vetting applications from intending particants. I opine that this approach is deliberate. MKP WANTS weak and abused men (in common with all LGATS I know of). That is men who will not stand up and challenge the processes, but take the beatings without complaint. How does that create a new world order of assertive and loving men?

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] James Arthur Ray - Paul Scheele, NLP, Ericksonian hypnosis

The Anticult — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:17:14 +0100

You can see the text above by James Ray and how it is full with the same type of language patterns being described.
The "New Behavior Generator" is a classic NLP pattern.

James Ray conceals most of his main sources, so it will take a little work to find the links. For example, he doesn't mention Tony Robbins in his book, but to anyone who knows Robbins stuff, James Ray is obviously directly copying a large amount of it.
Its the same with some of the NLP hypnosis tech, and other key components.

Jame Ray's associate Paul Scheele, has experience with Ericksonian hypnosis, and even dual-inductions, there are a lot of links out there to be brought forward.
God only knows what Paul Scheele is REALLY doing in these recordings.

http://www.mindalive.com/2_0/paraliminalcd.htm
Paraliminal CDs by Paul Scheele
QUOTE: "The Paraliminal CDs are based on dual induction Ericksonian hypnosis. Ericksonian hypnosis has been proven to be one of the most effective hypnotic techniques available to date."

[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

Fallen 49r — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:02:12 +0100

I still think there is a major oversight in claims of ongoing sexual abuse:

This is a closed group of people who have become a family, so children within the group are the children of life-long members, who are for the most part, life-long friends of the leadership. And these are not generally not superficial friendships, they're the kind that have been built, tested and proven through the years. Think of the most reliable friend you know and have known for decades, now considering molesting their children...

The older generation has generally been very hospitable and serving of the youth, truly believing they are special, so long as they play the role assumed of them. So I really see no reason, beyond random, that this group should [i]currently[/i] be suspect of sexual child abuse. As someone who used to be in and around activities and meetings of all sorts my whole life, I can't really think of how, when or why any such thing would occur.

If you want to help the "children" of this group, confront those poisoning their minds with ridiculous beliefs that damage their mental and social development.

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: James Arthur Ray - Tall Tales, NLP, hypnosis

The Anticult — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:47:18 +0100

http://mindpowermasters.blogspot.com/2009/06/james-arthur-ray-summary.html
"James Ray is trained in a large body of therapies, such as NLP"

_____________QUOTE__________________
http://blog.jamesray.com/labels/scheele.html
Sunday, April 15, 2007
...
Let's face it... One of the biggest challenges to creating success in any area of life is changing the habitual programming that's buried in your unconscious mind. I'm talking about the programming that's embedded after years upon years of exposure to limiting beliefs of what we can and can't do. These are the kind of beliefs that can sometimes take years to reprogram and replace.

Isn't it time you released these beliefs that have held you back from the kind of soaring success, wealth and joy that you deserve?
Well, now you can with the help of these powerful Paraliminals CDs. They're created by my friend, Paul Scheele, a true master in the field of whole-brain thinking. And I know you're going to love his Paraliminals program to achieve lasting results in your own life. The break-through technologies of neuro-linguistic programming and whole brain learning coupled with over two decades of research and field work by Paul have made this program possible.

....Your collection includes titles such as Prosperity, New Behavior Generator, Deep Relaxation, Get Around To It, Instantaneous Personal Magnetism and Ideal Weight... All great topics that get to the core of some deep issues that, while common, you don't need to hold onto!

You've simply got to check them out.
Get any of the individual Paraliminals for $29.95 or get The Ultimate You Library of 22 Paraliminals today at a special price: Just $359.80. Payment plans available!
You can get Paraliminals online or call toll-free 1-866-### any time (in order to get the discount while ordering, use customer number ####).

To your continued wealth and happiness,

James Arthur Ray
President/CEO
James Ray International
__________________UNQUOTE_______________________

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: The Church of Elias (Thread resurection)

Jaded — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:37:07 +0100

[quote Jaded][quote taffkid]Greetings,

I am seeking more information on the activities of the Church of Elias. It appears that the organization has, or is in the process of moving to Blackfoot, Idaho. The website for the church is registered to a James D. Armstrong who currently lives in Blackfoot and operates the Emergency Supply Depot in Blackfoot. I had the opportunity to speak to Armstrong. We did not discuss the church very much, but it seems that they are holding services in a room in the store as well as schooling children there.

Any information anyone can provide is appreciated. I am willing to speak off the board as well.[/quote]

The children have always been home schooled.
The oldest child is 28, next is about 26. I think they went to public schools only in Arizona and Colorado. John's widow has taught them ever since.[/quote]

Correction!!
The oldest child, a boy, is going to be 21. The next, a girl, is 19. (Looked at the wrong notes and did the math wrong the first time!)

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: Twelve Tribes Theology/Eschatology

nabashalam — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:23:10 +0100

Ambers Dad, It is truly hard to discern what is true and what is not when it comes to gathering info for groups such as the Twelve Tribes when a lot of thruths have been twisted and sensationalized by the media and disgruntled ex-members. I am an ex-member myself but have long lost my bitterness, which I brought on myself, and now try and convey the truth about this group.

As far as Mr Spriggs being a jet setting Guru is straight up ignorance and fabrication. Eugene does at times fly to different communities overseas, because he can't drive there, to attend meetings and "put out fires" and smooth out problems in all the communities. There are over 30 and he carries more burdens on his shoulders then any 12 men should be asked to. Yes he does have access to funds so he is able to travel but most moneys are managed by each community and tribe. There is a "10% tithe" put on all money made and put in a pot for evangelizing, buying properties etc. But Yoneq does not live "high on the hog" (terrible expression for such a kosher goup lol) but it is the people of the Tribes that roll out the red carpet for him and lavish him with their best because they love him and yes he is a lovable man. and BTW FYI "Bucky" is not his nick name. That was an old nick name of a long time member who has headed up several Twelve tribes industries and probably still does. His name is Ayal. Oddly enough he was involved in an accident and a law suit for damages also some 30 years ago... It's kinda odd that you brought up his name... hmmm interesting...

Now about getting some answers, I suggest you call the Chattanooga community and ask to have a sit down with the coordinator there. I would hope they would oblige. Now about getting all your questions answered, that might be a different story. They might require that they have legal council with them or maybe not. But if your coming at them legally and after money, they will meet you legally but if you go man to man, you just might get some answers but first they will discern if your in the right spirit to receive the truth but if you come there all bowed up or shifty, they will know and you will get nothing.

Bill may have had drinking problems in the past and yes they may have known that but if he had been baptized, then he was a new man and they would not dredge up his past for you to see. Now there is also another possibility that he was not baptized at the time and could have been "cut off" at the time of the accident and so he may have not been "covered" or "connected" to "the Body" at the time. If that's the situation then they will handle it in a worldly business like manner and act like any company would do and defend themselves legally, cover their legal responsibilities and clam up like a wise businessmen would.

If you appeal to their sense of fairness and moral obligation, you might receive a offer on the side, other then what the vehicle insurance company offered you but then that might leave them open for another law suit by admitting culpability. So that might be exactly why you won't get any info and that would be on the burden of your attorney which I am sure you have retained by now. Heck he is probably the one that wrote this letter above!

And I am pretty sure that Bill was not legally employed by the Common Wealth of Savannah or on paper and that your right and it's most likely just their vehicle carrier who offered the money and not their company's carrier. But I would assume that they should have work coverage or are bonded but maybe not.

But alas, I'm not a lawyer and I may be completely wrong or off on most of my assumptions and thats all they are...assumptions and they have the potential to make a a-- (you know how it goes).

And you might be a lawyer who's phishing... But I would advise you to leave a private email for those who wish to contact you about legal matters because it may prove unwise to have it posted all over the internet. [...]

It may seem that I am a bit apologetic for the Tribes and maybe I am (Ive been going trough a change of heart) but I can tell you everything I have said about them is the Gods honest truth...

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] ManKind Project 'New Warrior Training' weekend summary

The Anticult — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:20:21 +0100

That is a good report.
You can see MKP is trying to do a number of things. They are trying to mimick the "Initiation" ceremonies from tribal cultures where boys become men.
That is why they feel justified lying to people and tricking them about what is going to happen, as in tribal societies they terrorize the boys in these ceremonies, and don't tell them anything.

This report also shows an important point. That when a regular guy who does not have trauma or serious issues goes to a seminar, its much harder to break him down. But even a guy without serious issues, does feel the peer pressure to do most things.

But MKP and other LGAT target men with trauma, and some of these guys have terrible childhood sexual trauma, rape, abuse, torture, which needs treatment from trained licensed professionals.
But you see how they get the guys to write out their trauma, and then FLOOD them with the trauma, which is the most DANGEROUS thing you can do. It can lead to psychological collapse and suicide.

So a regular guy without trauma might just get the hell out of there after a few days.
But the guy with serious trauma, gets literally RE-TRAUMATIZED, and can have his entire life wrecked by that process.

This is why every LGAT targets vulnerable people. Even people who have "good intentions" will target vulnerable people and trigger their trauma and flood them with it. Their "good intention" is very damaging.
But they seek the drama of the psychological breakdown, which is the worst thing to do with trauma.
The guys who have set up and are running it, seem to have copied other LGAT who push people to breakdown, as that creates "customers" who are dependant for years, and who are desperate, and will buy anything.
MandKind Project is a potentially very damaging LGAT system.

[quote SeekingTruth]If anyone is in any doubt that MKP does not run benign healing retreats here's one report:

Newsgroups: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, soc.men, alt.support.ex-cult, alt.self-esteem, uk.people.support.mental-health
Date: 20 Feb 2007 10:27:48 -0800
Local: Tues, Feb 20 2007 6:27 pm

Subject: Mankind Project 'New Warrior Training' weekend - 1

I went to a Mankind Project 'New Warrior Training' weekend, I was made
to go by my boss who went and returned exclaiming "for once, I'm
making decisions with my heart, not my head!" After crying to me that
I had to go, I relented... this was my boss after all, and I felt that
to not go would seriously jeopardize my job. He demanded that several
of us from the office attend. One of the fellow attendees was a good
friend/co-worker of mine and thank goodness for both of us that we had
each other to rely upon during this BIZARRE weekend.

It started on Friday night, we were told to show up between 6 and 7
pm. As we arrived at the ranch it was being held, a man was guarding
the road, when we pulled up he stared at us for a few seconds as if he
was going to kick our ass (puh-leeze..) then asked in gruff yelling
voice, "Who are you? What are you here for?!" We had to answer him one
at a time as he repeated his yelling question to each of us... "okay",
we thought- "getting weird already..."

We drove up the road to the lodge where we were instructed to get in
line and wait until called into the main building. One at a time we
were called towards the building. Once there, two of the 'elders'
greeted me at the door, they were pleasant, asking if I was willing to
"push my boundaries this weekend" and "experience new things, etc..."
I told them, "yeah, sure..." "Great" they replied, "And do we have
permission to remind you of your agreement to push your boundaries,
etc...?" "Sure" I replied... whatever. "Welcome to MPK and see the man
inside the door" They then instructed me.

I walked through the door, and was greeted by a guy dressed from head
to toe in black, with black face paint and black bandanna, as I
glanced around the room, all of the guys were wearing similar
'commando' type attire.... He glared at me not saying a word.
Obviously trying to intimidate me - I was anticipating some sort of
"breaking down" technique, but COME ON! These guys looked SILLY!
Anyway, he just stared at me for around a minute- I jokingly tried to
make small talk with him, but obviously to no avail- he wanted to
INTIMIDATE me! Of Note: I'm a pretty big guy, in excellent athletic
shape, and I'm not easily intimidated... especially by some goof
trying to act tough... so I just started chuckling to myself... Like I
said, Silliness!

After the silent period he finally yelled at me to "SEE THE NEXT
MAN!'

The next man was only 2 feet away so I side-stepped to in front of him
and asked him how he was doing etc.. once again to no avail- he gave
me the silent treatment too..... until he finally told me to, "SEE THE
NEXT MAN"

The next man then asked for my personal effects, watch, phone, car-
keys, rings, etc--- He put these in a bag for safe keeping during the
weekend and then I was instructed to "SEE THE NEXT MAN"

The next man was actually men, in the next room- the room was dark and
empty except for a couple of tables with a spotlight over each one- at
each table were the guys who where in front of me in the original
line. The commando goof-balls were busy pouring out and searching
everything in everyone's overnight bags.. After each of us was
searched, frisked, etc we were screamed at (all communication at this
point was screaming- as I said, this was the beginning of the breaking
down process...) to go down this hall...

At the end of the hall, was one of the 'elders' again- he was calm and
peaceful again, asked a few questions and then instructed me to go to
the next room...

The next room was full of the other guys who were in line before me,
this was the 'holding-pen' for everyone until everyone showed up. We
had to sit on the floor while another 'elder', a fat old guy wearing
only a loin-cloth was beating a drum and doing these rhythmic
breathing exercises... once again, puh-leeze.....

After 45 min or so, when everyone was there, we were summoned up to
the main hall. All the instructors and elders were there, all still in
commando garb.... (you think that between 15 guys, one of them would
realize that they looked silly.... oh well...) We were welcomed and
then warned that this would be a weekend that will be difficult, but
one we'll never forget... boy, was he right!! He then broke into this
shpeal about, "how you could resist, but that's not why you came....
yes... you could resist, but that's not while you came." repeating
over and over, all dramatic like.... extreme silliness!

After the initial speech/orientation we were instructed to divide into
groups for our instruction/training. The first one was an attempt to
make us recognize that we are men. So we had to go around the group
and finish the sentence, "I am a man because _________." Some of the
instructors when first to demonstrate.. the first one: "I am a man
because I can pee standing up!" WHAT! Did I just somehow revert to 2nd
grade again?? The next instructor to demonstrate announced, "I am a
man because I've GOT A COCK!" I did somehow revert to 2nd grade....
"Geez, could these guys please be a little more infantile??" I thought
to myself. My buddy who was there and I were rolling our eyes at each
other from across the room at this point.... It was going to be a
loooooong weekend.

Next exercise: "Repeat after me, "I wimp out with women by _________."
The instructors demonstrated to begin. The first, "I wimp out with
women by putting the seat back down after peeing!" The next, "I wimp
out with women by letting HER choose the movie!". "Holy Shit! These
guys are ridiculous!" I was thinking!!

We went through a few more exercises like this, all equally silly,
until they called us all together again. I'm guessing it was probably
around 1:00 to 1:30 am at this point- they took our watches away so
nobody really knew. They announced that the night was over and we were
to retire to the cabins to sleep. They told us that we would be woken
in the morning and that when we were awoken, we would each have to get
naked and take a one-minute cold shower. And to make sure that nobody
cheated, each man would go one at time while the rest of the cabin
watched and counted to 60...... "WHAT! Who does that sort of thing? This
is going from silly to WEIRD," I thought to myself. But to be honest,
the real weirdness hadn't even started- just the homoeroticism.

SATURDAY MORNING

We were woken up at who knows what time.... But everyone was still very
tired- here again, my buddy and I had read up before the weekend and
so we were expecting a degree of sleep deprivation. We took our
showers... and watched and counted for each other... It's amazing what the
group dynamic can make a person do, huh?

Then we were escorted to the main hall for breakfast, which consisted
of dry cereal and cold water. This took place during the middle of
winter in upstate NY where it was COLD, so suffice to say, this meal
was less than fulfilling.... All morning we went through more silly
"educational" sessions like the previous night. And did a few
meditation exercises as well, and of course, what warrior training
would be complete without choosing your spirit animal? So we each did
that.... Lunch was the same, handfuls of dry cereal and cold water. But
after lunch, it started....

"It" started with all the instructors/elders yelling and beating drums
and making a huge ruckus- during which they brought in two sections of
carpet- This was going to be the "hero's journey" part of our warrior
training. We were split into two groups, one on each carpet.

These carpets, we were told, represented our universes. An important
part of any Warrior myth, is the "hero's journey." This is where the
hero has to go and face his demons, then harness those powers and come
away stronger because of it- pretty common theme- see Luke Skywalker,
Beowulf, Neo of the Matrix, et al.... But I digress...

So we were told that these carpets were our universes where our
'hero's journey' would play out. We were then warned that we might not
survive due to the difficulty of the journey, it would be perilous, we
would need all of our strength, etc... They asked who would go first-- I
volunteered. I figured I'd get it over with... One of the elders walked
up to me on the carpet, again asking if I was ready, it would be
dangerous, etc etc- "yeah, yeah, I'm fine" I replied.

Then about 5 instructors walked out onto the carpet and began drilling
me with questions. Sidenote: When we first showed up we had to fill
out a questionnaire, asking if we'd ever been molested, raped, were
gay, bisexual, if we'd had any traumatic experiences, problems growing
up...etc- Luckily for me, I haven't been molested, I haven't been raped,
and I haven't had any traumatic experiences that still plague me---
Believe it or not, I had a good childhood and I'm well adjusted now
(thanks mom and dad!) Well, they didn't believe it, so they started
really attacking me verbally, trying to get me to break down. But I
was kind of laughing at their attempts.

Somehow a bunch of old, out of shape men playing Indian warrior
doesn't really intimidate me. As this is playing out, I'm watching
what's going on the other carpet across the room from the corner of my
eye-the guy over there you stepped up first, all of a sudden got
tackled by several of the instructors----- "WHOA!" I thought to
myself, "if any of these guys try to pull some physical bulls$%t on me
I will f#%k them up!...." Let's just say I wasn't in the mood to
tolerate anything like that... They then instructed me to "close my
eyes!"

I figured it was to blindside me... a few of them had circled around to
behind me... I was halfway expecting one of them to clock me in the back
of the head or something. So I told them to essentially go to hell and
that I wasn't not going to close my eyes for them. They didn't like
that answer. So a few more instructors joined in with the others and
amount of screaming at me doubled.... Finally once they realized that
they weren't going to be able to "break" me they started chiding me
for "not being ready!" etc, and to "GET THE F%&K OFF THE CARPET!!!!"...
Whatever guys...

The next guy in our group stepped up, and they began drilling him with
questions. Remember that they had info from each man about his
personal traumas and the instructors were reading off of index cards
as each man stepped forward. So anyway the next guy steps up, they
start drilling him and all of a sudden he breaks down, crying, falling
to his knees.... "WHEN I WAS 9 I GOT RAPED IN MY ASS BY AN OLD MAN!!!!"

"BROTHERS!' the elders screamed, "this man has been abused, anyone who
has been abused like this, step forward and place a hand on this
brother to show your support!" All of a sudden EVERYONE there stepped
forward except for me! I was freaked! What kind of group was this? How
could there be such a large percentage of abused people in one group??
All sorts of questions were running through my head... This was getting
weirder and weirder...

So to "cure" this man, they set up a scenario: He was on one side of
the carpet, in front of him were two instructors, one represented the
man's "shame" the other represented his "loneliness" or something like
that-Behind them was a third man, he represented the old man that
caused the trauma. So the guy then had to connect with his inner-rage,
referred to as his "shadow" by the MKP and break through his "shame"
and "loneliness" and push the old man off the carpet and hence out of
his universe... sound kind of strange? It was!

This went on all day long, with these guys, using each man's
questionnaire to break him down- at one point one guy COMPLETELY broke
down. I mean this guy was BROKEN! Screaming hysterically, shaking
uncontrollably.. I figured they were going to have to sedate him and
take him away in a padded van. AND I'M NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY OR KID
AROUND HERE!! This guy was broken! They tried to calm him down for
about 30 minutes but couldn't.. so they took him outside, away from
the groups to try to calm him down.

From my spot on the carpet, I could see them trying to console him out
on the porch, but to no avail-this guy was broken! (I've read a few
mentions on this website of people committing suicide after MPK
weekends... I don't know if any of that's true, but this guy clearly
needed to be put under some kind of suicide watch at this point!! Once
again, I'm not kidding.) Finally after about an hour and half of him
being 100% hysterical, they instructors finally 'cured' him... How you
ask? THEY WALKED AROUND HIM 3 TIMES WITH BURNING SAGE!!!!!

At this point I was over it! This couldn't be legal, or ethical! F$
%CKING NEW AGE jerk-offs! Who the f%$k do they think they are!!!?

I'm getting so mad reliving this as I write this.... Relax... mellow....
Okay....

This went on all day until dinner. After dinner (cereal and water) we
did a few more exercises and then were told to retire to our cabins.
"But," they exclaimed, "the night wasn't over..."

Around an hour later, I'd guess it was around 9:00 pm by now, but once
again, who knew? The instructors started drumming again, summoning us
to the lodge. We were all led into a small room, the "holding-pen"
from the first night. Once there we were told to blindfold ourselves.
Once blindfolded, we were told to strip and throw our clothes in the
middle of the room... This was too MUCH! But once again, the group
dynamic... who's going to protest?

Blindfolded, we all stripped, we were then told to hold hands and we
were led in a long line towards the main hall. As we approached the
hall, we could hear drumming and yelling. As we entered the hall our
blindfolds were ripped from our heads- the hall was lighted by only
the large fireplace at one end of the room, in the middle of the room
was an alter comprised of candles, swords and animal pelts..
(Sidenote: our group consisted of about 20 initiates and maybe 15 MPK
instructor/elders) But in the lodge were no fewer than 65 men (not
including us 20 initiates!) and every one of them was buck naked and
writhing to the drumming.... And I mean WRITHING, they were dancing,
shaking their asses at each other, seeing who could shake their
scrotoms the hardest to each other... it was the most bizarre thing I
have ever seen-and I hope to ever see. I was expecting it to devolve
into a huge gay orgy at any second. Once again, I'm not trying to be
crass or funny, this is the truth.

After about 10-15 minutes of the homoerotic dancing melee... we were
called to order. Us initiates were arranged in a semi-circle in front
of the fire while the elders were up front. The other 60-some men were
arranged throughout the room. One at time they introduced themselves
-"I'm Thundering Stallion, I've traveled from NY City to be here!"
"I'm Laughing Wildebeest, and I have traveled all the way from Boston
to be here with you.." And on and on.... Each man used only his 'animal'
name.. and they all traveled far to be with us.... Lucky us....

We then went through a silly drawn-out new age style ritual where we
were each greeted one at a time and declared "Warriors!!" After the
ceremony we given the choice, we could return to our cabins to
contemplate or we could stay at the lodge to dance the night away with
the other men. Naturally my buddy and myself opted VERY QUICKLY for
the return to the cabin option. As did most of the other initiates.

Once returning to the cabin, my buddy and I were PISSED. It was at
that time that we decided that at first light we were leaving.

The weekend was supposed to last until around 6 or 7 pm on Sunday, but
my buddy and I were packed and ready to go at first light- we went to
the instructors cabin and walked in- they told us to get out! We told
then we wanted our car keys etc, because we were leaving. Naturally,
they then got PISSED! We expected them to make a huge scene in front
of the other initiates but after about 20 minutes of a few of them
pressuring us to stay, "But we're not finished!" "We still have the
renaming exercise!," "But we still have to do the sweat lodge!" (I
read the post about them telling guys to touch each other's dicks
during the sweat, and while I can't speak to that, I wouldn't be
surprised) "Yeah, that's great guys, but as we said, we're outta here,
gimme my car keys!"

Finally they relented. Luckily, my buddy and I had carpooled together
so we weren't in that trap. And by the way, we felt that the carpool
request by MKP was exactly that, a trap so people couldn't leave
without a huge hassle...

All in all, it was the strangest weekend of my life. At this point, my
buddy and I feel that the primary goal of MPK is to create a safe spot
for gay men to come out in. Whether or not this is true is debatable,
but the weekend dripped homosexuality constantly, and the complete
lack of ethical guidelines, to this day, bothers the hell out of me.

Sorry this has been so long and rambling, but there was a lot to tell...[/quote]

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: The Church of Elias (Thread resurection)

Jaded — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 19:40:35 +0100

[quote taffkid]Greetings,

I am seeking more information on the activities of the Church of Elias. It appears that the organization has, or is in the process of moving to Blackfoot, Idaho. The website for the church is registered to a James D. Armstrong who currently lives in Blackfoot and operates the Emergency Supply Depot in Blackfoot. I had the opportunity to speak to Armstrong. We did not discuss the church very much, but it seems that they are holding services in a room in the store as well as schooling children there.

Any information anyone can provide is appreciated. I am willing to speak off the board as well.[/quote]

The children have always been home schooled.
The oldest child is 28, next is about 26. I think they went to public schools only in Arizona and Colorado. John's widow has taught them ever since.

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: The Church of Elias

Jaded — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 19:33:51 +0100

Sorry, I didn't see this message until this morning when someone emailed me....

John was convincing and she was able to marry him after a short time. I don't know who introduced them. Brainwashing? Yes.

Her parents did talk to his ex wife, but not until after he died and they met her at the funeral. John had told them that she was hiding from him and would not let him see the children, which was untrue and she took all of them to the funeral (5), which included bringing one home from the Navy. There were other things he lied about -- he was never a seminary teacher.

The other children are by James Armstrong, who leads the church now. She will claim they are John's because the belief is that she is sealed to John and a "higher law" makes her children his, not Jim's.

I would like to think she is truly happy, but from my own experiences I have to believe she has doubt sometimes.

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: The Church of Elias

Jaded — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 19:20:16 +0100

[quote moocow]Hello!
I have been fascinated with this group for a few years now. You see, the prophet's widow was a friend of mine, and I'm still struggling to understand what happened to her. I was the black sheep of my family, while she was an absolute angel, and then the next thing I know she has been swept off her feet to this madness. Or, maybe it's not complete madness...

You seem to have a good inside scoop on the situation. WHAT HAPPENED?? I heard rumors that she blind-dated the guy (John) and was married to him less than a week later. That is some pretty fancy footwork if it was brainwashing or whatever. And I thought that her parents had talked to the ex-wife a few times... enough to know that not everything was on the up and up with him.

I feel bad for her that he died, but she seems not to mind it at all...I guess he's supposed to be back (resurrected) sometime, so maybe that's why she's not upset. But he left her with three of his children and now she's due to have her 6th any time...and claims they're all his!

I just feel so bad, and helpless. Maybe I shouldn't feel that way, because she seems truly happy, but Like I said, I guess I'm confused.[/quote]

I am sorry I didn't respond earlier. I never saw your post until someone emailed me today....
Her parents did speak with John's ex a few times, but not before they were married. They didn't meet her until after he died.

He brainwashed her. He told her that his ex was evil and would not let him see the kids. That was untrue and she even took them to the funeral.
I know his first wife.

The first three are from John. The others are from James Armstrong.
She is truly happy, but she has not known any other life other than what her deceased husband the Armstrongs have taught her. She has been fairly isolated since then, to my knowledge. I will find out more.

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: My experience in Falun Gong

alrick888 — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:55:46 +0100

Freedomtochoose,
Sorry to hear about this and that apparently the other practitioners you met did not take what happened to you seriously enough.

I have been involved in a Falun Dafa group (more like loose gathering of people) myself and although in Falun Dafa nobody really can call themselves a leader and there is no hierarchy, I do know that certain people through their experience or attitude get treated like seniors or leaders. This is not how it is supposed to be however, and it is actively discouraged by Master Li Hongzhi. You can find the relevant recommendations in the back of the various books.

I can relate to your experience as I was suffering from depression for years. When I shared this in my group there was not too much compassion either, instead I was referred to go read a teaching on "human notions". I remember at the time I wasn't too happy about that, still it helped a bit to think about my feelings in a quite different way.

What ordinary people call "depression" can be many things. It ranges from temporarily feeling sad to full organic depression. In my case it had to do with mercury poisoning as I found out later -not really an organic depression in the classical sense. So my fellow practitioners had been right in a way.

Do not think that I am saying the same is true in your case. I am merely suggesting that maybe the thinking behind it was the same: people often tend to give situations or occurrences rather extreme labels, and to a Falun Dafa practitioner these labels are discarded as invalid. Extreme things have happened to practitioners in China, like beatings, torture, rape with cattle prods and executions so we are encouraged to also see things somewhat in perspective.

Now the exact situation you were in I don't know about, I can just ask: did it feel like rape at the time it occurred, or was it only later when you started ruminating about it that made you realize this was rape? I sure hope you find a way to come to terms with this experience.

About myself, various circumstances had led me to give up my Falun Gong practice for over five years. However just last week (by what ordinary people would call "coincidence"" but what I think is karmic ties) I came back to Falun Dafa. And I can tell you it feels great to do the exercises again and this has realy helped me a lot in dealing with feeling down.

However, I now practice on my own and only have some limited email contact with other practitioners. I want to emphasize that Falun Dafa is not a cult, it does not fit the characteristics. That doesn't mean however that through their different attitudes and attachements some practioners seem to run some groups in a cultic way. This should be brought to light and I feel we should also name the specific groups and people.

So if you also want to contact me by pm please feel free.

["Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"] Re: The Church of Elias (Thread resurection)

taffkid — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:46:56 +0100

Greetings,

I am seeking more information on the activities of the Church of Elias. It appears that the organization has, or is in the process of moving to Blackfoot, Idaho. The website for the church is registered to a James D. Armstrong who currently lives in Blackfoot and operates the Emergency Supply Depot in Blackfoot. I had the opportunity to speak to Armstrong. We did not discuss the church very much, but it seems that they are holding services in a room in the store as well as schooling children there.

Any information anyone can provide is appreciated. I am willing to speak off the board as well.

[Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential" ] Re: Mankind project

floatingfreebear — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:45:49 +0100

good afternoon mr. ross.

thank you. this is quite a bit of information. i need to read and research on it.

i will.

i'll be in touch

floatingfreebear

[quote rrmoderator]floatingfreebear:

"It wasn't for them"?

This is the standard apology to brush aside bad outcomes from LGATs.

Of course it ignores the inherent problems with LGATs and why there are so many bad outcomes, complaints, bad press and litigation over personal injuries and at times wrongful death.

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing9.html

In this research paper regarding "mass marathon training" otherwise often called LGAT (large group awareness training) psychologist Philip Cushman examines what's wrong with such training groups.

Cushman offers 13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:

1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.

4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.

He also offers for warning signs when groups were determined to be dangerous.

1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

LGATs typically rely upon coercive persuasion techniques.

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing8.html

Sociologist Richard Ofshe offers some research regarding this method of persuasion often called "brainwashing" in popular culture.

The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:

1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance

2. The use of an organized peer group

3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity

4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified

Psychiatrist Robert Lifton offers eight criteria to determine if a group is using what he calls a "thought reform" program.

1. Control of communication

2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation

3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology

4. Obsessive demands for confession

5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless

6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought

7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine

8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect

These methods differ sharply from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html

Psychologist Margaret Singer makes these distinctions in her book "Cults in Our Midst."

Some time ago an anonymous member of this message board posted the training manual of MKP, which is kept secret and not disclosed to the general membership. The manual exposes the fact that MKP training events are highly scripted. MKP objected that its copyright was violated so the complete text has been edited within "fair use" guidelines to demonstrate the pattern of persuasion used by MKP.

See http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,12552,page=1[/quote]

[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

Sallie — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:34:55 +0100

Daddylonglegs,
If no domestic disputes have been reported by any ''family'' members over the last three decades would that be because
1) Domestic abuse has never occured
2) Domestic abuse never gets reported

[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

Sallie — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:33:08 +0100

Daddylonglegs:
Previous posts discussed Jack Hickman preaching that he was the re incarnation of Jacob.
I was still involved in the group after 1982 and recall ''teahinigs'' on re incarnation
The teachings included much talk of ''young and old souls''
I was taught...after 1982....that a soul could be born ''old''
Does this teaching still occur
If so...is it possible for a 14 year old boy to have the ''soul'' of an old man
If so....would that 14 year old boy, in theory, be eligible to receive the ''passing of the seed''

[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

Sallie — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:58:04 +0100

Daddylonglegs
you previously wrote
Another difference I see between Gary and JH is the motivation. Not sure what it is now except trying to hold together something he believes in wholeheartedly. He still collects tithe, yes, but I also know that only about 50% of people are paying it at this point. As far as a compound like living arrangement- the only one I know of is The V family, and it's pretty much just their family. .......................................

You posted other comments which clearly, to me, indicate that Gary Coons has taken over Jack Hickman's position and that you think favorably of and support him.
]

Anonymous brought up some valid points about the teachings of Jack Hickman. I also would like to know if Gary
Coons is continuing on with lineage teachings as described in the Newsday article.

[Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups] Re: Trumpet Call of God

bob — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:19:01 +0100

These letters really desturbs me ~ it changes what God has spoken in His Holy Word ~ I thought it be good for those of you that are interested what is talked about in these meetings

(*Note: "OBLSF" = Online Bible Letter Study Fellowship)

Trent Fuller: 10:45:07
while we are warming up ... there is something we aught to set out there about the studies
danlafave: 10:45:20
ready..
Art and Kathy: 10:45:35
go
Emily: 10:45:59
ok
Trent Fuller: 10:48:15
God passes the mic around to people so that they can sound off and share what is in their hearts ... the mic being the "floor" or whathave you when they are talking. And often it makes us think of 1000 things to say that goes with it ... but that is not always the best ... in fact it is hardly ever the best to shoot off 1000 things right in the middle of their point. So, lets remember those things to share by making mental notes or writing them down ... and when the Lord says "NOW is a good time for that" ... then share it or ask it or say it ... but wait for the "NOW" ... OK?
Amy: 10:48:39
Yep, Ok.
Trent Fuller: 10:48:43
Also
Amy: 10:48:46
Sounds good.
danlafave: 10:48:54
10-4
Emily: 10:48:57
k
Trent Fuller: 10:49:00
Take special attention to the verses and letter that come to mind
Trent Fuller: 10:49:12
We need more of scripture and less of us, ya know?
Amy: 10:49:25
Yep.
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 10:49:28
k
Emily: 10:49:37
yah
danlafave: 10:49:41
ok
Trent Fuller: 10:49:58
yall are the best
Trent Fuller: 10:50:01
one more thing
Art and Kathy: 10:50:23
we c
Trent Fuller: 10:51:14
if you want to get something out there to the person that has the floor, but afraid to interrupt their stream of thought ... it is best to doubleclicktheir names from the list above and open a side-window chat ... to give them something away from the main window
Trent Fuller: 10:51:35
that is a way to keep the message coherent for those that are going to read it later
danlafave: 10:51:57
thanks for the info
Amy: 10:52:03
OK Trent.
Trent Fuller: 10:52:17
it is nice if the flow is sensible when we email this out to people, right?
Art and Kathy: 10:52:18
(y)
Amy: 10:52:40
So are you saying to use the side windows for study stuff, but perhaps not to use the side window for side chatter during the study?
Lauren Pyatt: 10:52:43
is this a call
Lauren Pyatt: 10:52:43
hello
Amy: 10:52:59
No, Lauren... no audio on Mondays or Thursdays.
Trent Fuller: 10:53:02
My preliminary findings are that these Bible Studies are awesome
Trent Fuller: 10:53:26
What up LP?
Timothy: 10:53:52
bk
Lauren Pyatt: 10:54:03
well i have to work in 30 minutes but i dont wanna go
Timothy: 10:54:07
let get this party started
Timothy: 10:54:13
(party)
danlafave: 10:54:26
rdy
Timothy: 10:54:29
ummm
Timothy: 10:54:50
I have to kkindly disagree with side windows
Timothy: 10:56:08
I feel side chats are disrespectful to the teacher who is heeding the leading of THEE TEACHER and maybe a distraction, unless the Lord has commanded it or it is an emergency
Timothy: 10:57:05
this I know from the Lord as I have been corrected of the Lord for being a sidewindow person
danlafave: 10:58:01
so stick to the study and hold q.'s until approiate to advance them?
Timothy: 10:58:08
so plz get a notepad and write your questions down or thoughts then plz yes bring them up at the time trent asks for them
Timothy: 10:58:10
:)
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 10:58:11
btw, i have a doctor apt and may just leave and will read later - just a 411 to all
Timothy: 10:58:30
ok
danlafave: 10:59:32
well, lets go!
Timothy: 11:01:18
any questions regarding study etiquette
Timothy: 11:01:35
:)
Art and Kathy: 11:01:56
no sir
Emily: 11:02:00
So basically, quiet until the "NOW"
Emily: 11:02:01
?
Timothy: 11:02:09
yep :)
Art and Kathy: 11:02:13
yep
Timothy: 11:04:14
Trent?
Trent Fuller: 11:04:27
hi
Trent Fuller: 11:04:31
Lets pray
Timothy: 11:04:35
yes
Trent Fuller: 11:04:47
Father, You proved Your love and it has saved us
Trent Fuller: 11:05:07
Now we bask in the ever-encreasing grace of Your Spirit and blessing
Trent Fuller: 11:05:12
blessing to worship and praise
Trent Fuller: 11:05:18
blessing to know and understand
Trent Fuller: 11:05:30
blessing to share and encourage and SHOUT Your name
Trent Fuller: 11:05:38
Thank You for Jesus ... Yahushua
Trent Fuller: 11:05:49
Thank You for loveing us and redeeming us from the curse.
Trent Fuller: 11:05:56
We are so grateful and we worship You.
Trent Fuller: 11:06:05
What shall we do, but listen and obey?
Trent Fuller: 11:06:08
Thank You.
Trent Fuller: 11:06:10
(join)
Timothy: 11:06:22
Lord we worship You
Jay&Beth!: 11:06:25
You are Holy!
Timothy: 11:06:30
for You alone are worthy
danlafave: 11:06:42
thanks be to You YAHWEH
Timothy: 11:06:43
and we pray for these with heavy hearts
Jay&Beth!: 11:06:52
Your ways are above our ways. Help us in our weakness. Be our strength and our Righteousness.
Timothy: 11:07:05
Lord we want our gaze to be fixed on You
Art and Kathy: 11:07:13
we humbly thank You for this beautiful NEW day...
Timothy: 11:07:13
teach us your ways
Timothy: 11:07:28
show us how to trust and then walk in Your paths
Jay&Beth!: 11:07:29
Nourish our starving limbs, may we abide in You, the Vine
Timothy: 11:07:54
and especially how to ALWAYS run to you when we stumble
Timothy: 11:08:28
You are LORD
Timothy: 11:08:33
Lord of All
Timothy: 11:08:41
LORD of lords
Timothy: 11:08:52
THE All in All
Jay&Beth!: 11:09:02
You are our Helper and Comforter
Timothy: 11:09:05
Let this kknowledge fill our hearts
Jay&Beth!: 11:09:07
We love you!
Timothy: 11:09:09
our veins
Art and Kathy: 11:09:18
You are the Perfect One, in whom we can put all our trust
Timothy: 11:09:18
let it run throughout our whole being
Lauren Pyatt: 11:09:27
YahuShua be with me
Lauren Pyatt: 11:10:07
cleanse our homes. build our faith
jrtrussell: 11:10:12
Oh Lord, fix my eyes upon You
Timothy: 11:10:16
For only real peace comes from kknowing that YOU ARE WHO YOU ARE and YOU ARE LORD
Timothy: 11:10:51
and true worship comes from giving You all thanks
Timothy: 11:11:23
and deep trust is saying "Amen... Your will be done"
Timothy: 11:11:35
and all this because of Love
Timothy: 11:11:47
unfathonable love
Timothy: 11:11:56
which is only found in You oh Lord
danlafave: 11:12:05
Lord, what more can we say, You know our hearts, our thoughts, and know of the thanks we have and give to You Alone, amen
Timothy: 11:13:27
oh Eternal King... The Lord My Righteousness...
Timothy: 11:13:38
there is no other WAY
Timothy: 11:13:48
there is Life in NO other
Timothy: 11:14:02
You alone are Righteous and True
Timothy: 11:14:10
and loving and holy
Timothy: 11:15:10
Lord I am sorry for my stumblings, yet I thankk You beyond words for letting me become desperate for You... my one comsuming passion
Emily: 11:15:24
Oh yes Lord.....
Timothy: 11:15:58
Oh Lamb... My Lord and my God
Timothy: 11:16:12
You died.... so we may live
Timothy: 11:16:27
not just any life... but with Your Life
Timothy: 11:16:36
in Your presence
Timothy: 11:16:44
come and marry us
Timothy: 11:16:50
we wait for You
danlafave: 11:17:05
yes, Our King!!
Timothy: 11:17:14
MARANATHA!
Timothy: 11:18:07
In Your name we say let it be so... COME!... The Lord OUR Righteousness Reigns!... Your will be done.... Thank You.... Thank You... Thank You
Timothy: 11:18:10
Amen.
Timothy: 11:18:13
and amen
Abir: 11:18:17
amen
Trent Fuller: 11:18:23
amen
Amy: 11:18:23
Amen.
Art and Kathy: 11:18:30
AMEN...
danlafave: 11:18:36
Amen
Abir: 11:18:38
thank you so much Adonai
Trent Fuller: 11:18:42
guys
Abir: 11:18:47
and gals
Trent Fuller: 11:18:50
we have some LETTERS
Jay&Beth!: 11:18:52
Amen
Trent Fuller: 11:19:08
some beautiful letters
Trent Fuller: 11:19:14
from God
Trent Fuller: 11:19:17
nd His Christ
Trent Fuller: 11:19:30
Let me paste em
jrtrussell: 11:19:50
Amen
Abir: 11:20:06
The Lord is so awesome
Trent Fuller: 11:20:09
amen
Trent Fuller: 11:20:30
'ok this is long so lets give some time to read it and then comment that you are done reading ... ok?
Abir: 11:20:31
hey amy is that supposed to be a pic of God's glory on ur display?
Trent Fuller: 11:20:38
The Word of My Mouth
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11/3/09 From God The Father and Jesus The Christ, YahuShua HaMashiach, Our Lord and Savior - A Letter Given to Timothy, For Craig Called Daniel, And For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

Thus says The Lord God: There are those who have come and endeavor to seat themselves at My table, who resist My word in The Volumes, wanting to hear My Word but at the same time refusing My Word spoken to this generation... My people shall live by faith and walk in that which was given them already; and pay close attention to, giving ear and obeying, that which I also speak presently, even that which is at hand and given for this generation. For that spoken, at present, shall be put first; and that which is contained in The Letters of Truth shall be foremost and brought to the front, for all to behold. Not that this Word is at all superior; neither shall it be considered inferior to My Word found in The Scriptures of Truth. My Word is My Word... Both are Scriptures and Truth. And that, spoken in the hearing of My prophets, was written and spoken to the generation in which it was received, for all to hear... Whether they would hear or whether they would forebear. And as it was in all times past, where I had spoken to My servants, the prophets, and they in turn both wrote and spoke aloud, saying, �Thus says The Lord�, so it is at this time... Even at the end of this age, which has come upon you. That, which is put forth of My mouth, is foremost, and shall not be put second to My Word spoken aforetime; neither is one made a foundation for the other, as though the Word proceeding from My own mouth was in need of anything to uphold it; nor is any other witness required to prove My Word as My own, when I, Myself, have spoken it...

My Word stands...

And is known of those who are Mine and among those in whom I dwell.

Therefore, let My present Word be shown to be in full agreement with My former Word.

For it is in perfect agreement with My Word as it was...
Yet runs straight in comparison to that which men have made crooked.

Here is wisdom few have come to consider, nor have they understood: If one who confesses Me, yet remains dull in hearing and lacking in discernment, for his eyes remain dim and hard of seeing, let him test My Word by My Word only... For any test done outside My Word, or done according to the word of men, shall fail and be found as contempt before The Lord, for I sit as judge. For you have failed to see that My Word in The Volumes, also being called The Letters, is also a rod by which the translations of men are to be tested, and a light which shines on the doctrines of men to expose them, revealing them to be blasphemies and heresies before God... Which shall burn in the Day, when the fire comes to test the quality of each man�s works.

Therefore, if one professing faith be wise,
He shall humble himself before Me and call upon The Holy One for knowledge,
In where all understanding flows to the truly contrite and penitent,
Flowing in pure testimony, without any shadow of turning or corruption...

And by this only can one be wise in the reading...

Comparing that which was given with that which is put forth once again,
Discerning The Source and The Author to be the same...

One Word, One Book, One On-going Testament to My Glory...

By no means should it be divided into three, says The Lord.

Behold... My Words shall never pass away...

For as I am, so also is My Word, for it proceeds from Me,
Being manifest by He who is True, also being called The Word... Living...

Always feeding His flock the Word, which is written for their nourishment,
Which is to be received through that part of Himself, which is also in Me...

The Spirit called Holy, which speaks to the truth of who I am,
Glorifying He who I sent to you, who bears My name and reveals My glory in Himself,
Even as I am glorified through Him...
His glory being the same I own...

For We are One from the beginning, yet manifest as two in the earth...
So those, whom I have chosen, may know Me and come to Me and receive life...
Returning to, and being fulfilled in, the paradise of God, which is in His Kingdom and His Son.

I am The Lord...

And those, who have received of Me,
Testify that The Holy One, called Christ and Jesus, is The Lord of Heaven and earth...

ADONAI YahuShua HaMashiach is He to whom all the peoples of the earth shall bow...

Even all things shall give Him glory, calling Him Lord...

The only Faithful and True Witness...

The One Eternal King, who is and was, and is to come...

The Almighty...

Give Him all glory.

Therefore Craig, Daniel, you shall teach this Sabbath, and the next, and a third time as I command you: You shall pray and make for yourself an outline, and follow it... Not according to the hearers, but according to the Head, which I am. You shall prepare three studies in one accord, three studies containing My Word in The Letters only. And from the Volumes only shall you gather knowledge with which you shall feed this flock, who have come to sit at My table on The Lord�s day. For I have spoken to this generation, and that which I have uttered shall be brought to the head of the table and distributed... Even as I am the Head of My own table. And all good things both come from, and are distributed through Me... The Faithful and True Witness.

I am The Lord and I change not. Therefore, I will do nothing until I have made My plans known to all My servants, the prophets, where then I shall also call them My friends... The very same whom I have set up, who have become My beacons at the end of this age, who also will be MY shepherds in the Day of darkness and heavy sorrows. They will endure and can not be turned aside, for they will continue until their days are fulfilled... Then I shall come upon the clouds, with great power and glory.

In that day, the whole earth shall tremble at My presence
And be shaken by the word of My mouth...

Behold, even the rocks shall cry out,
And every living creature shall break out with a great noise and give Me glory...

Even the mountains and all high places shall be brought down
And bow before The King who has come...

He has returned to judge in righteousness...
And to restore His Kingdom by the power and majesty of His vesture...

For I am The King of Glory... The Righteous One of God!

The time has come!...

Prepare and watch.

The Holy One shall shout and reap His harvest,
He shall also return in all His glory...

And by His authority He shall make an end.

Behold a new day...

His rest...

One thousand years.
Timothy: 11:24:13
(*everyone... Amy and I are here, but not here... The Lord wants us to continue working on new Letters...so have a blessed study!.... we love you all (h) (wave) )
Abir: 11:24:28
(we love you too)
danlafave: 11:26:34
yes, me too and ...done
Trent Fuller: 11:27:33
Can you summarize the Letter in a simple sentence or two?
danlafave: 11:27:52
yes
Emily: 11:27:55
who?
Abir: 11:27:59
The Lord who speak to Ezequiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, John, is the SAME one speaking to us today.
Art and Kathy: 11:28:35
You all have a wonderful day!
danlafave: 11:28:43
craig is to teach from the "Letters" as the doctrine of men is fraught with "poison"
Art and Kathy: 11:28:55
You all have a wonderful day!
danlafave: 11:29:20
men tryingto insert their own meanings into the Word
Emily: 11:29:23
Living Word, Word in the Letters, Word in the Bible....in that order. He IS the author of ALL. Letters are first now, over the Bible.
Trent Fuller: 11:29:55
i like your summaries
danlafave: 11:29:58
great job Em
Abir: 11:30:07
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. - Hebrews 13:8
�For I, Jehovah, change not . . .� Malachi 3:6
Jay&Beth!: 11:31:29
Men have corrupted the Scriptures of Truth in various Bibles through uninspired translation... Rather than using English Bible Translations as a measuring stick to judge the Letters, we ought to recognize the Spirit behind the Letters and use them to judge/discern the translations of men.
Trent Fuller: 11:31:33
Either Tim, Jayse, Beth and Jim are conspiring to write a fraudulent doctrinal book, or God is writing it and if God is wrting it then under no circumstance is it second fiddle to anything written before amen?
Jay&Beth!: 11:32:03
amen
Emily: 11:32:07
amen
jrtrussell: 11:32:09
Oh that we might humble ourselves and wait with all eagerness to hear and search and see from Him that the columes of letters are TRUE
danlafave: 11:32:25
amen
jrtrussell: 11:32:46
humble and penitant man will see as he ask The Lord
Abir: 11:32:55
Hes showing us that through the Letters He also clarifies The Word in the Bible
Trent Fuller: 11:33:01
Yes
Abir: 11:33:26
because of the mistranslations and biased translations, through The Letters, God is helping us filter out the mistranslations and the biases
Trent Fuller: 11:33:32
What are some of the things that were clarified in YOUR minds by reading the Letters over and against how men have taught you to read the Bible?
Abir: 11:33:33
and leading us to the purity of The Doctrine of Christ
Abir: 11:33:37
wich was not His own doctrine
Abir: 11:33:39
but of Our Father
jrtrussell: 11:33:42
Hell
danlafave: 11:33:56
death
Trent Fuller: 11:34:07
Soul sleep (Today, you will be with me in paradise (note the comma))
Trent Fuller: 11:34:15
Law and Grace
danlafave: 11:34:16
baptism
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:34:19
men's holidays vs. his holy days
Abir: 11:34:20
I say to you today,
Jay&Beth!: 11:34:21
Rapture
Abir: 11:34:25
you will be with me in paradise
Trent Fuller: 11:34:37
innocence of children over the doctrine of original sin
Abir: 11:34:39
Hes leading us back to The Way
jrtrussell: 11:34:55
how to hear from Him....voice of truth
Trent Fuller: 11:34:55
The rapture is before the tribulation
Jay&Beth!: 11:35:00
who is in heaven currently
danlafave: 11:35:01
the true sabbath, and men's holidays
Jay&Beth!: 11:35:02
resurrections
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:35:14
those that sleep
Trent Fuller: 11:35:15
but after a great 3 years of trouble in the last ten days of sorrow
Trent Fuller: 11:35:28
Sabbath, sabbath and more sabbath
Trent Fuller: 11:35:34
Yes
danlafave: 11:35:36
Elijah, moses
danlafave: 11:35:43
yahushua
jrtrussell: 11:35:43
Oh Lord, thank You soooooomuch for revealing these TRUE doctrines
Trent Fuller: 11:35:47
assurance of salvation
Abir: 11:35:48
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein."
danlafave: 11:35:57
Yahushua and the Father
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:35:58
the truth about tabernacles - being bold
Trent Fuller: 11:36:01
Yes
Trent Fuller: 11:36:04
the Holy Spirit
Abir: 11:36:07
How powerful the effect of God's Grace and Christ's Sacrifice really is
Trent Fuller: 11:36:12
Trinity?
Trent Fuller: 11:36:15
Amen
Trent Fuller: 11:36:19
That is a powerful list
Abir: 11:36:19
trini-what?
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:36:23
no trinity
Trent Fuller: 11:36:26
right
Abir: 11:36:31
amen to that
Abir: 11:36:37
only One God
Trent Fuller: 11:36:37
powerful
Abir: 11:36:41
and One Lord
Trent Fuller: 11:36:42
I have a question
Abir: 11:36:58
someone here might have an answer
Trent Fuller: 11:37:08
Why is it OK to be unbalanced and share exclusively from the Letters?
Abir: 11:37:29
is it really ok?
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:37:29
?- smaller words please
Abir: 11:37:32
shouldnt we do both?
Abir: 11:37:40
the Letters and The Bible?
jrtrussell: 11:37:54
HE IS ALIVE!!! HE IS TEACHING US EVEN TODAY!!!! AMEN?
Abir: 11:37:56
can u serve someone a glass of water without the glass?
danlafave: 11:38:02
it is not unbalanced in view of the fact that men have transalted the original bible into their own beliefs, and the leters stand by themselves
danlafave: 11:38:10
letters*
Art and Kathy: 11:38:13
everybody, if you don't hear from us for awhile...our computer is really acting up,,
Abir: 11:38:29
but that doesnt mean EVERY bible translation is messed up
Abir: 11:38:40
there are some pretty accurate translations
Abir: 11:38:43
especially now
Emily: 11:38:47
When it is time, I have a question
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:38:57
be careful what translation is read
Trent Fuller: 11:39:09
Personally, it is fine to be unbalanced
Abir: 11:39:09
even tho most of the people like to stick to the poorly translated and biased translation of old king jimmy
danlafave: 11:39:17
yes, Abir, but some parts cloud the intent of what the Father had to say
Trent Fuller: 11:39:42
Only an unbalanced approach will PROVIDE balance to all the people that are already pumping exclusively the Bible
danlafave: 11:40:07
"the Rod with which to be measured by"
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:40:20
they first have to have eyes that see and ears that hear.....
Trent Fuller: 11:40:31
Plus, this is for NOW ... this generation ... it is first!
Trent Fuller: 11:40:44
amen
Suzanne Cornelius La Fave: 11:40:55
love to all, have to roll out, and will read more later
Trent Fuller: 11:40:59
Emily had a question ... lets let her ask it
danlafave: 11:40:59
Em has Q.
Trent Fuller: 11:41:03
(adios S)
Emily: 11:41:30
Just wanted to know then...is this only for Craig on his studies,or shall we now no longer post verses here too? Just curious...
Trent Fuller: 11:41:47
The Lord will guide you
Trent Fuller: 11:41:52
:-)
Abir: 11:41:53
amen
Abir: 11:41:57
cuz i just felt it
Abir: 11:42:22
i feel i just felt like He wants me to do both
Abir: 11:42:36
and i been feeling lately He wants me to really really really read and study The Bible
Trent Fuller: 11:43:09
As for me, I'll be leaning more on Letters than the Bible taking into account the Lords guidence to Craig and see if He wants me to be more open to Bible sharing
Trent Fuller: 11:43:50
Don't underestimate God's ability to work in you to want to do something and also work to become disinterested in something even often the same two somethings
Trent Fuller: 11:44:42
Also
Trent Fuller: 11:45:23
Look at it more like God wants a positive thing added so that there won't be as much time for the other thing that is done which is less relevant to current doings
Trent Fuller: 11:45:54
um having a hard time explaining that
Abir: 11:46:09
are u saying
jrtrussell: 11:46:13
I can't explain, but this Letter means so much to me.
Abir: 11:46:14
that the bible is less relevant?
Emily: 11:46:23
I understand that, but the Bible is not so much "less relevant", especially certain passages....
Emily: 11:46:39
They are all His Word
Trent Fuller: 11:46:58
Is the book of Esther more or less relevant to us than the Letters? Is the Letters more or less relevant to those that lived during Esther's time?
Art and Kathy: 11:47:06
God's Truth remains His Truth, always a
Trent Fuller: 11:47:54
What was the MOST relevant thing to share with God's people in the time of Jerimiah?
Abir: 11:47:59

i think we should just really pay attention
Trent Fuller: 11:48:04
the book of Job?
Emily: 11:48:06
Trent, His current Word
Abir: 11:48:06
to what the letter said
Abir: 11:48:10
[11:15:03 AM] Trent Fuller: Not that this Word is at all superior; neither shall it be considered inferior to My Word found in The Scriptures of Truth. My Word is My Word... Both are Scriptures and Truth.

<<<
Abir: 11:48:24
that means niether is less or more relevant
Abir: 11:48:28
they are both just as relevant
Trent Fuller: 11:48:29
relevent doesn't imply superiority
Trent Fuller: 11:48:36
nope
Jay&Beth!: 11:48:40
Yea, they are two different meanings
Abir: 11:48:44
they both hold the truth
Trent Fuller: 11:48:49
yes
Trent Fuller: 11:48:52
but
Abir: 11:49:07
hmmmm
Trent Fuller: 11:49:08
[11:42:18 AM] Trent Fuller: What was the MOST relevant thing to share with God's people in the time of Jerimiah?

<<<
Emily: 11:49:25
[12:38:14 PM] Emily: Trent, His current Word

<<<
Abir: 11:49:28
ok
Abir: 11:49:32
thats true
Abir: 11:49:35
i over looked that
jrtrussell: 11:49:36
that he was going to destroy Israel
Trent Fuller: 11:49:46
Should Jerimiah regret that He didn't preach from the book of Job enough?
Jay&Beth!: 11:49:47
relevant - bearing upon or connected with the matter in hand
Abir: 11:49:48
now i see
jrtrussell: 11:49:53
and to repent and turn themselves over to the King of Babylon
Jay&Beth!: 11:49:59
higher in station, rank, degree, importance, etc.: a superior officer.
Trent Fuller: 11:50:03
Was Jerimiah unbalanced?
Abir: 11:50:09
I think thats why The Lord had me listen to the book of Ezequiel
Abir: 11:50:21
to show me that the same Lord speaking to Timothy and telling him what to write
jrtrussell: 11:50:21
WORD FOR THAT MOMENT IN TIME
Timothy: 11:50:23
may I insert somethin quick?
Abir: 11:50:27
is the same one who spoke to Ezequiel
Timothy: 11:50:46
yeah sorry I glanced at the study while waiting for amy
Trent Fuller: 11:50:50
I thank God that Jerimaiah wasn't burdened to be balanced and instead shared exclusively from God's current message ... and Jerimiah will not regret it.
Trent Fuller: 11:51:10
Yes, Tim?
Art and Kathy: 11:51:20
...to try and finish what I started to say, it all has to do with these end times...I totally understand that.
Art and Kathy: 11:51:42
this computer is really acting up...SORRY
Trent Fuller: 11:51:53
no prob
Trent Fuller: 11:51:54
:-)
jrtrussell: 11:52:04
WE HAVE A WORD FROM THE LORD FOR THIS MOMENT IN TIME
Timothy: 11:52:20
weather warnings on tv or the radio are all the same are they not?
Art and Kathy: 11:52:25
absolutely, Jim...
Trent Fuller: 11:52:42
re-runs of the weather report don't mean that much to me
Art and Kathy: 11:52:52
(and Tim)
Timothy: 11:52:57
but what if the weather channel gave us a warning for todays weather from last year?
Trent Fuller: 11:53:12
boring
Emily: 11:53:36
irrelevant
jrtrussell: 11:53:43
but if you had video of that tornado i'd watch...lol
Timothy: 11:53:53
you see the weather warnings are the same but the date of the warning iks the most relevant
Art and Kathy: 11:54:01
it just probably wouldn't have quite the same impact, right..
Abir: 11:54:11
its true
Abir: 11:54:18
im startin to see a bigger picture of this now
Timothy: 11:54:34
so the Trumpet I am blowing is The Letters
Abir: 11:54:41
first i looked at it through a carnal perspective but now that i look at whats behind it all i see now what we're getting at
Timothy: 11:54:56
because thats the warning going out today
Trent Fuller: 11:55:01
yes
Timothy: 11:55:31
and after that I also remind people of previous warnings
Trent Fuller: 11:55:33
Some parts of the Bible are weather reports for today ... but not all of it.
Emily: 11:55:48
That's what I was trying to say too, Trent. :)
Trent Fuller: 11:55:54
:-)
Trent Fuller: 11:55:55
amen
Trent Fuller: 11:56:00
the next letter?
Timothy: 11:56:05
wait
Trent Fuller: 11:56:06
(thanks for clarifying Tim)
Trent Fuller: 11:56:07
oh
Abir: 11:56:30
hey what trent just said
Abir: 11:56:34
does that fit in with
Abir: 11:56:37
rightly dividing The Word?
Timothy: 11:56:51
one more thing... the Lord says when were done to re-read His word above again slowly and all will be brighter
danlafave: 11:57:03
k
jrtrussell: 11:57:08
such a cool letter
Timothy: 11:57:17
and as far as Craig
Timothy: 11:57:23
it says what it says
Timothy: 11:57:51
it applies to Saturday study only for the next 3
Timothy: 11:58:17
anyway... amy is here so back to work... love ya
Trent Fuller: 11:58:32
does that mean that the rapture won't happen in the next three weeks ?
Trent Fuller: 11:58:33
lol
Emily: 11:58:43
:)
Timothy: 11:58:47
stop it
Amy: 11:58:49
? :)
Trent Fuller: 11:58:50
ok
Trent Fuller: 11:58:51
lol
Timothy: 11:59:00
I otta
Timothy: 11:59:05
(punch)
Emily: 11:59:06
Trent's being an alarmist
Emily: 11:59:07
:)
Abir: 11:59:13
(punch) both of u
Timothy: 11:59:15
lol
Trent Fuller: 11:59:16
hehe
Abir: 11:59:17
only peace
Amy: 11:59:36
OK - back to work everybody. :)
Abir: 11:59:36
(ninja)
Trent Fuller: 11:59:40
next letter is shorter
Timothy: 11:59:47
(wave)
Trent Fuller: 11:59:48
lets give time to read
Trent Fuller: 12:01:02
Warn Them From Me, Says The Lord
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10/27/09 From God The Father - The Lord�s Words Given to Timothy During an On-Line Conversation -
For Those The Lord is Sending, Who Have Been Called to Take Up the Trumpet, and For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
Regarding the Perverse Doctrines of Men Amongst The Earthly Churches

Thus says The Lord to His servants, those who shall run into battle... MY shepherds who I have set up, those who shall shepherd the wild flock: Correct them sharply and warn them from Me, says The Lord... Let the division be concluded. For as I am, says The Lord God, so shall I be and have always been. I will not be moved, neither shall My servants... I am The Lord. Therefore, warn them from Me. For they, who hate My Word in the Volumes and refuse My correction, contend not with men, but with The Lord their God... Even to the polluting of My name. And all this in the name of pride, and according to their perverse doctrines, of which I hate. They are detestable to Me... I loathe the sight of them, and will no longer bear, nor hear them.
Therefore, again I say, warn them from Me... Whether they will hear, or whether they will forebear, make it known. Strike quickly with the sword of My Word. And by it shall they be divided, and that according to their own heart, in which they divide themselves... Casting their lot with men and the deceiver, refusing The Lord�s correction and those truths, which are self-evident in the eyes of those who know Me and in whom I dwell. For I will no longer hear the controversies of those who call of themselves Christian, who dwell in the midst of the worldly churches... No more will I allow their perverse disputings to continue. I shall turn to them the back and not the front...

Yea, I shall hide My face from them... I know them not.

They are left desolate, standing alone in the place they said they would never be...

Refinement... The Day of The Lord!...

Bewilderment and heavy sorrows...

Abased... Then shortly uplifted.

I am The Lord.

I shall give correction and impart judgment... Or how shall I gather them? Brokenness shall be their companion in the day of The Lord�s anger, for My anger shall not be turned away from them, until they say, �Blessed are the feet of those whom God sends... We will give heed to their speech and pay close attention to their proclamations... We repent, oh Lord, in dust and ashes�...

I am The Lord...

And though I bruise, I shall surely heal.
I shall cast strong judgment, yet I will also show mercy.

And though I afflict, I shall bring relief and much comfort.

All, who must go into captivity, shall go into captivity, yet I will deliver them...
Even all, who call on the name of The Lord, in that Day.

And though many will be brought low, even down to the depths of darkness and despair...
Behold!... From the depths I shall raise them up, even high above the heavens...
Yea, from the dust shall they come forth, and give Me perfect praise in the tabernacle of My glory!

And so it is fulfilled, and shall soon come to pass...
The first shall be last, and the last shall be first partakers of The Glory...

Yet all will be saved, according to the number The Lord shall call...

I AM THE LORD.
danlafave: 12:03:26
done
Emily: 12:04:07
done too
Trent Fuller: 12:04:16
For as I am, says The Lord God, so shall I be and have always been. I will not be moved, neither shall My servants... I am The Lord. Therefore, warn them from Me. For they, who hate My Word in the Volumes and refuse My correction, contend not with men, but with The Lord their God
danlafave: 12:05:24
amen
jrtrussell: 12:05:44
[11:55:51 AM] Trent Fuller: And though I bruise, I shall surely heal.
I shall cast strong judgment, yet I will also show mercy.

And though I afflict, I shall bring relief and much comfort.

<<<
Trent Fuller: 12:05:45
Is the instruction for everyone at the beginning?
jrtrussell: 12:06:03
nope
Jay&Beth!: 12:06:25
"Let the division be concluded."
danlafave: 12:06:34
no, his servants who will run into battle
Trent Fuller: 12:07:01
si
Trent Fuller: 12:07:20
what shall we say if trying to summarize this letter in a sentence?
danlafave: 12:08:18
for His servants, those chosen, to state the Word, and let every one cast their lot , eitther for or against the lord
Jay&Beth!: 12:08:20
The Lord will no longer tolerate the false doctrines that pollute His Name, and we are to warn those who preach and believe them.
Art and Kathy: 12:08:30
we trust in His unfailing Love and Mercy..
Trent Fuller: 12:08:50
yes
Trent Fuller: 12:09:13
how successful was the warning if the listener forbears and casts their lot against the letters?
Emily: 12:09:32
It's like them putting their fists up at the Lord
danlafave: 12:09:37
did what it was supposed to do
Emily: 12:10:01
The warning did its job
Art and Kathy: 12:10:05
yes,...He will not lose one..
Trent Fuller: 12:10:09
that is the definition of success isn't it?
jrtrussell: 12:10:09
buys them a ticket to The Great Day of The Lord
Trent Fuller: 12:10:31
two successful outcomes ... either one or the other decision has been made
Jay&Beth!: 12:10:36
Whether they hear or forbear.
jrtrussell: 12:10:41
amen
Trent Fuller: 12:10:51
what is unsuccessful?
Abir: 12:10:56
i gotta leave
Abir: 12:10:59
take care everyone
Jay&Beth!: 12:11:00
In the Day they cannot attempt to justify themselves before the Lord saying "Why didn't you warn us, you gave us no warning!?"
Trent Fuller: 12:11:04
(adios bro)
danlafave: 12:11:05
creating indecision on their part
Jay&Beth!: 12:11:05
Much love bro
Abir: 12:11:05
shalom God bless and love you all
Trent Fuller: 12:11:28
exactly Dan
Trent Fuller: 12:11:33
did everyone catch that?
Trent Fuller: 12:11:52
I asked what is unsuccessful ... and dan said ...
Trent Fuller: 12:12:01
[12:05:28 PM] danlafave: creating indecision

<<<
Jay&Beth!: 12:12:11
amen
jrtrussell: 12:12:14
explain
jrtrussell: 12:12:22
im not a smart man
Trent Fuller: 12:12:33
the time is to press for a decision
Trent Fuller: 12:12:37
either for or against the Letters
jrtrussell: 12:12:44
ok
Trent Fuller: 12:12:48
and to disallow procrastination on the decision
Trent Fuller: 12:12:53
no more fence sitting
Trent Fuller: 12:13:01
make up your minds, amen
Trent Fuller: 12:13:21
the only failed trumpet is the one that is ignored
Trent Fuller: 12:13:50
if the throw rocks at you ... you did something right
Emily: 12:13:59
but guess what? There is no ignoring it, don't you, by ignoring it, make a choice against it?
danlafave: 12:14:00
I disagree, if they heard the trumpet, then a decision has or was been made
Trent Fuller: 12:14:28
that depends
Emily: 12:15:37
If you are standing on a railroad track, and a train is coming...and someone says to you, "hey, yo, you've got a train coming right at you." You can either listen and get OFF the track, or you can ignore it, and by ignoring it, you make the choice to stay on the track and get pummeled.
Trent Fuller: 12:16:15
Is it enough to get off the track?
danlafave: 12:16:27
if they do not know of the leters and a re hearing about them for the first time, then a chance for a decision is going to be "allowed", but if they have already heard, then the choice is inevitable
Emily: 12:16:49
Elaborate, Trent...if you don't mind
Trent Fuller: 12:16:53
ok
Trent Fuller: 12:17:14
God is saying to SHOUT His name
Trent Fuller: 12:17:19
to Trumpet His return
Trent Fuller: 12:17:24
That is the decisino
Trent Fuller: 12:17:31
One must decide to obey or not
Trent Fuller: 12:17:44
To make their lives right and purify thier houses and warn others
Trent Fuller: 12:17:55
Yes, get off the track but JOIN us warning others too
Trent Fuller: 12:18:11
I think I have only recently gone this directino
Trent Fuller: 12:18:22
when someone seems in indecision ... I tell them
Trent Fuller: 12:18:33
I tell them what it has cost my brothers and sisters to get this message out
Trent Fuller: 12:18:38
I tell them to examine their lives
Trent Fuller: 12:18:42
Do they have a computer
Trent Fuller: 12:18:45
a printer?
Trent Fuller: 12:18:47
a dollar
Trent Fuller: 12:18:52
a cd burning
Trent Fuller: 12:18:57
a magic marker
Trent Fuller: 12:19:01
Then GET the word out ..
Trent Fuller: 12:19:08
if you believe the word, you will share it
Trent Fuller: 12:19:16
if you don't believe it you will not share it
Trent Fuller: 12:19:32
only an evil person would hear of the doom and sit on their hands believing the word is true
Trent Fuller: 12:19:49
So there are a few people who may seem to agree with the Letters ..
Trent Fuller: 12:19:55
at least not enough to argue against them
Trent Fuller: 12:20:16
but that is the indecision that God will not allow to go on and on forever
Trent Fuller: 12:20:23
It is a call to action
Trent Fuller: 12:20:28
the whole of the Letters
Emily: 12:20:41
So in other words, yes, get off the track, but then go next to the other guy who's shouting and shout with him?
jrtrussell: 12:20:53
amen
Trent Fuller: 12:20:57
yes
danlafave: 12:21:08
let him warn who he will, move on for more
Jay&Beth!: 12:21:11
makes sense to me, thanks for clarifying, that's awesome
Trent Fuller: 12:21:15
and if not shouting together ... then indecision remains
Emily: 12:21:31
amen good point
Trent Fuller: 12:21:51
shouting together or shouting against ... are both evidence of decision
danlafave: 12:22:45
"those who are in league, uplift and support those who support the same cause"
Trent Fuller: 12:23:03
yes ... if it is an important matter
Trent Fuller: 12:23:16
is this an important matter?
Emily: 12:23:20
YES SIR
Trent Fuller: 12:23:22
does it not call for action?
Emily: 12:23:32
It calls for action with all of our beings
Trent Fuller: 12:23:42
yes
danlafave: 12:23:53
His return is not important??? It is what the earth has waited for for over 2000 yrs !!!!
Trent Fuller: 12:23:58
The other day someone said "be careful" with regard to the Letters
jrtrussell: 12:24:18
hear it all the time
Trent Fuller: 12:24:22
so the Lord had me tell him about all the things that we have suffered getting the word out
Trent Fuller: 12:24:31
lost jobs
Trent Fuller: 12:24:34
lost families
Trent Fuller: 12:24:35
and still we shout louder
Trent Fuller: 12:24:45
then I said, "You have a computer, you have the means to join us."
Trent Fuller: 12:25:05
Decide, because I am not letting you distract me again. ... Either for or against
Trent Fuller: 12:25:11
Search it out
Trent Fuller: 12:25:13
Fast
Trent Fuller: 12:25:14
Pray
Trent Fuller: 12:25:36
be diligent and make a decision that you can live with for 1000 years, because that is how long you will have to live with it
Trent Fuller: 12:25:47
How will you spend the last minutes before midnight?
Trent Fuller: 12:25:49
HOW?
Trent Fuller: 12:25:52
Decide
Trent Fuller: 12:25:54
... he did
Trent Fuller: 12:26:00
I was unfriended and blocked
Trent Fuller: 12:26:01
amen
Trent Fuller: 12:26:03
that is what I wanted
Trent Fuller: 12:26:07
hallelujah!
Trent Fuller: 12:26:13
The Lord gave me what to say
danlafave: 12:26:38
knocked the dust right off'em,(sandals)
Trent Fuller: 12:26:51
Tim had a good point about that
Trent Fuller: 12:27:04
Do we knock dust off before giving the message?
Trent Fuller: 12:27:35
did the diciples see the town on the horizion and say "I have a bad feeling about this ... lets knock the dust off our sandles now."
Trent Fuller: 12:27:36
?
Emily: 12:27:44
no
Emily: 12:27:48
of course not
danlafave: 12:28:01
no, tht is judging and be careful to avoid tht ,for whoare they rebuking?
Trent Fuller: 12:28:14
I admit that I often have a bad feeling about people
Trent Fuller: 12:28:20
like ... they won't accept this
Emily: 12:28:29
You'd be surprised sometimes....
Trent Fuller: 12:28:31
But that is no time to knock the dust off
Trent Fuller: 12:28:46
amen
Emily: 12:28:54
Look at each of us
Emily: 12:29:05
Especially those of us that have been in the churches
danlafave: 12:29:16
"book by it's cover syndrome"
Emily: 12:29:26
Who would have thought we would ever accept the Letters?
jrtrussell: 12:29:29
thats my problem
jrtrussell: 12:29:37
i do that all the time...judge
jrtrussell: 12:29:39
arrrg
Trent Fuller: 12:29:48
How do you want to remember the last months that you spent before the coming of the Lord? You will remember it forever ... HOW do you want it remembered? Playing it safe?
Emily: 12:30:11
I want to remember my all out abandonment
Emily: 12:30:14
for the Lord Jesus
Trent Fuller: 12:30:22
Yes
danlafave: 12:30:45
really, what do we have to fear, for it isn't us they are rebuking, and the world hated Him, should we not expect the same?
Trent Fuller: 12:30:52
Don't your friends and acquantences deserve the ability to decide that same thing for themselves? How they will live it?
Trent Fuller: 12:31:24
The train is coming ... you have 5 minutes ... how will you spend it?
danlafave: 12:31:25
The Word divides bone and sinew, ...
Emily: 12:31:41
scream! yell!! Wave your hands, jump up and down
Trent Fuller: 12:31:48
we aren't doing anyone any favors to be cautious
Trent Fuller: 12:32:28
They will wonder ... why didn't you tell me this was important in those last days ... important enough to loose my job, family, friends, and loose it all for the sake of Christ?
Trent Fuller: 12:32:40
Why didn't you make me decide?
Trent Fuller: 12:32:46
and tell me what was at stake
Trent Fuller: 12:32:47
?
jrtrussell: 12:32:51
ya
Trent Fuller: 12:33:03
but if they DID decide ... well, it is on them
danlafave: 12:34:00
yes
Trent Fuller: 12:34:16
well
Trent Fuller: 12:34:17
amen
Trent Fuller: 12:34:20
closing remarkes before prayer?
danlafave: 12:34:38
we are not their salvation, "just the mailpeople"
Trent Fuller: 12:35:03
aaaaaaaaaaaaamen
Trent Fuller: 12:35:09
don't convince anyone
Emily: 12:35:23
onlyu the Lord can convince
Trent Fuller: 12:35:29
don't help them make up their mind ... just trust the Lord
danlafave: 12:35:57
amen, rejection is abounding
Trent Fuller: 12:36:02
challenge them to look into it will all dilegence and make a decsion they can live with for 1000 years ... for indeed they will
danlafave: 12:36:20
xclnt py.
Trent Fuller: 12:36:21
1000 years and forever after
danlafave: 12:36:25
pt
Trent Fuller: 12:36:54
Dan, will you lead in prayer?
danlafave: 12:37:08
Yes,
danlafave: 12:38:10
Oh Holy Father, thank you for the Letters You have bestowed upon us, the clarifying and realizing of your Truth,
danlafave: 12:39:06
that Truth which is the rod tht all need to use to understand what and how the Word has been changed, over time, allowing our father's to 'fall asleep,
danlafave: 12:39:56
Not withstanding, that the word you are giving us today, is the Word to Live by, and to help us meet and trumpet as you would have us,
danlafave: 12:40:15
to continually keep You and Your son in the forefront of our dailuy lives,
danlafave: 12:40:21
son*
Trent Fuller: 12:40:57
yes
danlafave: 12:40:58
Adonai, hear our prayers as we go forth, blessing all who would hear and forbare, to understand tht this is the time,
danlafave: 12:41:27
the Time of which The Ages have waited for
danlafave: 12:41:40
Come, King YahuShua
danlafave: 12:42:22
deliver Your son His bride, and show those who would accept athat yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory for Forever
danlafave: 12:42:30
son*
danlafave: 12:42:37
please join in
Jay&Beth!: 12:42:54
We love You Lord
Trent Fuller: 12:43:00
You're faithful to my heart
Trent Fuller: 12:43:07
You will come and marry me
Emily: 12:43:16
Thank You for opening our eyes...even this far.
danlafave: 12:43:17
We are your servants, Oh Our God, and We love You as no other
Trent Fuller: 12:43:18
Faithful to the end
Emily: 12:43:23
I cannot wait to know MORE of You
Jay&Beth!: 12:43:28
Teach us to abide more and more that we bear more bountiful fruit!
Jay&Beth!: 12:43:34
You are so awesome.
Trent Fuller: 12:43:47
Glory to they Righteous One!
Jay&Beth!: 12:43:53
Give us voices to SHOUT loudly
Trent Fuller: 12:43:57
Glory to the Righteous One!
danlafave: 12:44:01
Hail the King, for He comes In His Raiment
Jay&Beth!: 12:44:02
You are the Lord our Righteousness
Trent Fuller: 12:44:17
Glory to the Righteous ONE!
Trent Fuller: 12:44:25
Hallelujah!
Derek Sasha & Malachi: 12:45:08
thank You Lord for everything, thank You so much for leading me and my family and everyone here back to You, thank You for giving us life again... I love You Lord
Jay&Beth!: 12:45:19
Thank You for Your correction
danlafave: 12:45:21
Lord, Lord, we beseech you, let those who will hear, accept the Truth of Your Words, notwithstanding, but bowing down to the One True Messiah
Jay&Beth!: 12:45:22
You are good to us
Jay&Beth!: 12:45:40
You do all things well
Trent Fuller: 12:45:52
The promise of Your coming Light / it burns so brightly in my mind / And all creation lays in wait / for the coming of the Day ... OH MY SOUL!
Jay&Beth!: 12:45:56
You do it for Your Namesake, all glory be given to You
danlafave: 12:45:59
YOU ARE THE EVERYTHING, THE MEANING TO LIFE IN ITSELF, FOR WITHOUT YOU, WHAT IS LIFE???
Trent Fuller: 12:46:24
Come!
danlafave: 12:46:44
Oh our sweet Lord, we lift up your name in Praise, for who has done the mighty works that only You can do?
Emily: 12:46:59
Bundle us together...come Lord YahShua!
danlafave: 12:48:00
take these tears and use then to ese the sorrow and pain from Your heart, let your servants hearts pave the way for You to come into your Kingdom, My LOrd MY Righteousness
Trent Fuller: 12:48:13
You are faithful to the end!
Trent Fuller: 12:48:18
You will come!
Trent Fuller: 12:48:25
You will rescue me!
Trent Fuller: 12:48:42
Faithful til the end!
danlafave: 12:48:47
Praise and Glory for He is THE Lamb who was slain for our transgressions
Trent Fuller: 12:48:57
amen!
danlafave: 12:49:10
who are we taht You even are mindful of us, Oh God
Trent Fuller: 12:49:25
Thank You!
danlafave: 12:49:46
let your Power rip the earth asunder, making all bow before the True Prince of Peace
Trent Fuller: 12:50:32
Every knee will bow / every tounge will SHOUT . .. JESUS IS THE LORD!
Trent Fuller: 12:50:43
Jesus is the Lord!
Derek Sasha & Malachi: 12:50:46
yes! amen
danlafave: 12:51:00
for all these things we pray for in His most Beautiful name, THE name above all Names, YahuShua Hamaschaich, AMEN
Trent Fuller: 12:51:09
Every eye will see the coming of the King! Jesus is the Lord!
Trent Fuller: 12:51:15
amen
Trent Fuller: 12:51:18
amen and amen
danlafave: 12:51:39
Love and peace will abound, hate and pain gone forever more, so wonderful...
Derek Sasha & Malachi: 12:51:42
amen
danlafave: 12:51:49
amen and amen
Trina: 12:51:52
Amen
Emily: 12:52:04
AMEN
Jay&Beth!: 12:52:11
Amen
Jay&Beth!: 12:52:21
Love yall! Have a blessed day in YahuShua
Trent Fuller: 12:52:27
love ya bro
Trent Fuller: 12:52:31
love ya everyone!
Derek Sasha & Malachi: 12:52:38
you too :)
Trent Fuller: 12:52:38
Shalom in Yahushua!
danlafave: 12:52:45
to all in the study and beyound, shalom!!!
Emily: 12:52:54
Amen
Art and Kathy: 12:53:36
amen
Art and Kathy: 12:53:48
have a good day, all

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[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

rrmoderator — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:41:27 +0100

To whom it may concern:

There is no preaching allowed on this message board per the rules everyone agreed to before posting here. This includes private messaging other members.

No personal attacks.

The topic of this thread is "Jack Hickman."

Please stay on topic and within the rules.

[Abusive and Controlling Relationships] Re: Jack Hickman

Sallie — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:28:44 +0100

Alright.
I'll post it on the world wide web
The ''harrassing'' pm

I referred to the book of Galatians. I said '' I think Jack was quoting from that Book when he said that Abba was a name for God.''
Then I said, ''I think in Galatians believers are told that through faith in Christ Jesus they have access to the Creator and can call him Abba. (I"m paraphrasing)
Then I said ''I think Galatians is the same book in which we are told ''God will not be mocked''
Then I said...''think on that''
Then I told you what my faith in Christ Jesus was.
I apologize if you felt harrassed by that.
I won't send you any more private messages.